Rent Notice and new property

szam_

Afternoon.

This is a bit of a strange one. My and the missus needed to move ASAP as our mail is being stolen from the communal mail room. We saw a perfect property with our current letting agents, so went for it.

I went to view as the missus couldn't get time off work - loved the place albeit things need doing and were told these were in progress before I had a chance to ask. Set the date to next weekend to get the keys etc - months notice on my current place had to be in by the 16th else we'd be responsible for another months rent.

So the admin fee's have been paid, we've been approved etc etc and the notice was handed in on the day it was needed and they've acknowledged this.

Thing is, we were rushing to get in before the 15th as we are on holiday for two weeks. I've had a call today to say that the electrics need doing and there is a lot of work. Great, I'd rather the place be safe and not blowing up any electrical items - trouble is the date has been pushed back to the 9th of next month (provisionally) rather than the 26th. This works in our favor in some ways, others not so much.

I'm wondering where we stand if the place isn't sorted by the 9th (the last date we can physically move things and the letting agents are open on). They've said they'll try to have it sorted by then, but I'm a bit worried that we could end up with nowhere by the time we get back off our holiday if the electrics haven't been done by the 9th. It also means we need to rearrange delivery of a Sofa and Bed w/ Mattress.

I'm showing someone around viewing my current apartment tomorrow - so if the place isn't ready by the 9th and they have a date for new people to move in, we could really be stuck.

Any advice?

Thanks in advance.

Confusedandneedhelp

Have you signed a tenancy agreement, stating you will move in on the 9th???

If not, I suggest you get this

G_M

szam_ wrote: »

Afternoon.

........ Set the date to next weekend to get the keys etc - months notice on my current place had to be in by the 16th else we'd be responsible for another months rent.

......

the date has been pushed back to the 9th of next month (provisionally)

I'm wondering where we stand if the place isn't sorted by the 9th (the last date we can physically move things and the letting agents are open on). .

What does "set the date to next weekend" mean? You signed a tenancy agreement with that as start date?

What does "the date has been pushed back to the 9th of next month (provisionally)" mean?

What have you actually signed?

If you've given notice (you realise if you fail to leave you can be charged double rent?) before getting a tenancy signed for your next home, you have left yourself vulnerable to homelessness.

Forumnewbie

1. As it's the same letting agent, surely they will understand your holiday arrangements and postpone the new let until you get back? Seems possible they don't want the owner to accrue void costs on your current property, so until there is a new tenant in the wings, there will be no problem with a delay on their part, and certainly there should be no double rent.
2. I would say your priority is not the furniture delivery - that can be postponed perhaps until further notice from you - but keeping in with the Landlord is - or in your case the letting agency. It is people, not bricks and mortar, they are managing so it is not easy for them - a balancing act with the owners, filling the void properties and keeping everyone happy. Especially they want to retain good tenants.
3. Also a priority might not be the electrics because you can of course get the repairs done at any time, even after occupying the new flat. You are entitled to an Electricity Safety Certificate. You may wish to draw up a list of the repairs needed at the outset of the tenancy i.e. when signing the tenancy agreement, and agree these amicably first.
4. Also if your post is being interfered with, that is a criminal offence, so a reasonable note in your neighbour's letter box (keeping a copy) might be the first step stating you may involve the police.
5. Putting the new and old tenancy matters in writing/email with the letting agent will keep your best interests uppermost. It might be an idea to state you wish to ensure the move is as smooth as possible, although there may always be minor problems, and you would like the letting agent to assist with this.
Good luck - moving is always a bit of a nightmare.

szam_

Thanks for the replies so far.

Just to clarify a few things:

We have only signed the admin side of it, the contract signing and deposit with first months rent is done on the day you get the keys (at least this is how this letting agents works).

I made the Letting Agents aware of the problems with the mail being stolen (I have reported this to the police who seemed to take it seriously at first, and no longer care, it seems) amongst other issues with the building in general. I also informed them that because someone is taking the mail and knows I ordered a Euro card, they probably put two and two together and realize we are away on Holiday soon. It's unlikely they'll break in, but I don't want to take any chances.

The reason we took the place so quickly is because it's first come, first serve with the Letting Agents (on a really nice house, in a decent area, for the price it is at, with 4 other viewings later on that day, it's a steal), we wanted to move ASAP and prior to going away. I actually asked for the 9th of August originally, and was told the LL might not go for that and would prefer someone move in sooner - this is no issue for us, so we moved it to the 26th.

We got back the approval to move in on the 26th the day before our notice would have been due, if we hadn't done this by the 17th, we'd have been responsible for the next months rent too. Two days after the notice, we are told there is no chance it'll be ready for the 26th as the electrics need work - the agents have said they will try and get it all done by the 9th - the last day we can sign the contract and get the keys before moving away (we go away on Friday 15th in the evening). The agents are aware of both our need to get moved by a certain date and the reasons why we are moving so urgently.

What worries me are there are first time renters coming to look at the apartments with a view to move in asap (as I am having to take my lunches to go home to show people round). The "date available" listed on the agents website states the 16th August, so they have clearly decided we need to out by that time.


An update today is that I rang to find out the progress, the agents still haven't got a price to do the electrics yet, never mind a dates it'll be done on or clearance from the LL - just over two weeks until we are now supposed to move in.

My concern is, and this is all circumstantial - if the place isn't ready by the 9th (or we're not allowed to have the keys and contract done by then) and they DO put the date available back on where we are for two weeks until after we get back, it'll be another week before we can move after we get back, that they'll make us liable for rent due to delays for something that isn't our fault given we were asked to take a place asap to please the LL.

I have asked if we can move everything in on the 9th regardless and start the tenancy, and do the handover of keys on the 15th, the morning before we go away, on the current place - but I don't know if they'll go for that.

Confusedandneedhelp

Forumnewbie wrote: »

1. As it's the same letting agent, surely they will understand your holiday arrangements and postpone the new let until you get back? Seems possible they don't want the owner to accrue void costs on your current property, so until there is a new tenant in the wings, there will be no problem with a delay on their part, and certainly there should be no double rent. - The two Landlords will want to be paid correctly. Nothing to do with the agent being the same.
2. I would say your priority is not the furniture delivery - that can be postponed perhaps until further notice from you - but keeping in with the Landlord is - or in your case the letting agency. It is people, not bricks and mortar, they are managing so it is not easy for them - a balancing act with the owners, filling the void properties and keeping everyone happy. Especially they want to retain good tenants. - No, its the Landlord, not the letting agent they need to get on with. The landlord will be the one to pursue their owed rent
3. Also a priority might not be the electrics because you can of course get the repairs done at any time, even after occupying the new flat. You are entitled to an Electricity Safety Certificate. You may wish to draw up a list of the repairs needed at the outset of the tenancy i.e. when signing the tenancy agreement, and agree these amicably first. - your not entitled to an electrical safety certificate, as (in engalnd and wales to clarify) there is no such obligation
4. Also if your post is being interfered with, that is a criminal offence, so a reasonable note in your neighbour's letter box (keeping a copy) might be the first step stating you may involve the police. - proof would be required of course.
5. Putting the new and old tenancy matters in writing/email with the letting agent will keep your best interests uppermost. It might be an idea to state you wish to ensure the move is as smooth as possible, although there may always be minor problems, and you would like the letting agent to assist with this. - and the letting agents will probably not care, as they've been paid and the contract been signed. But thats me being pessimistic, the agent might care.
Good luck - moving is always a bit of a nightmare.

As above in red

Forumnewbie

Szam_ you have a lot on your plate and your transfer is quite messy. It seems to me that if you want to wait for the electricity repairs to be completed, you must make it clear to the agent you do not agree to pay double rent. I would even throw in you may need to start looking elsewhere. However to suit your Tenancy End Date (TED), I would accept the new flat without the electricity repair being done. That would enable you see if the agent is only using this as an excuse.

You cannot have a tenancy without possession, so your idea of moving your stuff in without the keys will not work. The Tenancy Commencement Date (TCD) gives you possession, entitles you to move in and requires you start to pay the rent. Of course once it's the dog days of August, it will be difficult to get anything done.

In reply to Confusedandneedhelp, in point order:
1. It is everything to do with the Agent. He is most certainly responsible for the letting part of the landlord's job - otherwise why would the Landlords employ him? Being awkward regarding the TCD is one of the tricks they use and Szam_ is correct in safeguarding himself from double rent.
2. In this case it is both. However the agent is the one who is dealing with the letting arrangements. The landlord cannot expect the prospective tenant to pay for his void period - if the tenant has everything in writing with the agent, he can reveal all to the landlord at a later date to show he was not to blame for rental loss, but he needs to secure the flat now. To complicate matters the Letting Agent is in some cases the landlord, or these lines can be blurred. Also there are a myriad of different agreements between Letting Agents and landlords, from simply acquiring tenants to managing the whole tenancy including rent arrears - for different percentages of course.
3. http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/repairs_and_bad_conditions/health_and_safety/electrical_safety_responsibilities
4. I agree the police can be useless at this or any "petty" theft - it is usually dealt with by the Special Constables who are basically volunteers. They give a case no. for the Insurance and then leave it. I think the written warning to the neighbours is the best option but I sympathise!
5. Things may have moved on by now but a letter (or several) is still best to cover yourself. If you want a daily rental agreement, request one, especially if the transfer is left till after your hols. Perhaps you have a friend or family member who will kindly clear your post, water your plants etc - bring them back a nice present from your destination.

booksurr

Forumnewbie wrote: »

Szam_ you have a lot on your plate and your transfer is quite messy. It seems to me that if you want to wait for the electricity repairs to be completed, you must make it clear to the agent you do not agree to pay double rent.
OP has given in their notice (which has been acknowledge by current LL,. Therefore double rent is the legal position if they outstay their end date, it is not a matter for discussion
I would even throw in you may need to start looking elsewhere. However to suit your Tenancy End Date (TED), I would accept the new flat without the electricity repair being done. That would enable you see if the agent is only using this as an excuse.
agreed. If the new LL is willing to allow OP to move into what could possibly be a building site with intermittent power suipply whilst work is in progress then that certainly is a way to avoid homelessness but it is down to the new LL to agree since his contractors may charge extra for having to work around an occupant, eg contractor has to spend time making things clear and safe each day before leaving site

You cannot have a tenancy without possession, so your idea of moving your stuff in without the keys will not work. The Tenancy Commencement Date (TCD) gives you possession, entitles you to move in and requires you start to pay the rent. Of course once it's the dog days of August, it will be difficult to get anything done.
tenancy commences when consideration is given (rent is paid) and received (keys handed over) it is not simply defined by a date

In reply to Confusedandneedhelp, in point order:
1. It is everything to do with the Agent. He is most certainly responsible for the letting part of the landlord's job - otherwise why would the Landlords employ him? Being awkward regarding the TCD is one of the tricks they use and Szam_ is correct in safeguarding himself from double rent.the gaent works for each LL and it is the LL's decision over what voids are acceptable that dictates the agents speed of response. The tenant is simply the person who pays the money and cannot call the shots to the agent, although obviously negotiation may produce positive results. Double rent is defined above
2. In this case it is both. However the agent is the one who is dealing with the letting arrangements. The landlord cannot expect the prospective tenant to pay for his void period - if the tenant has everything in writing with the agent, he can reveal all to the landlord at a later date to show he was not to blame for rental loss, but he needs to secure the flat now. To complicate matters the Letting Agent is in some cases the landlord, or these lines can be blurred. Also there are a myriad of different agreements between Letting Agents and landlords, from simply acquiring tenants to managing the whole tenancy including rent arrears - for different percentages of course. since there is no suggestion that the current tenants are remaining in the property whilst the work is being done then we can assume that the new LL is already paying for a void and appears content to do so since the "TCD" proposed is after then works complete
3. http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/repairs_and_bad_conditions/health_and_safety/electrical_safety_responsibilities
I suggest you read this properly "you can ask your landlord to get an inspection done - although they are under no obligation to do so". The law requires a LL to have an annual gas safety check and provide the certifcate to the tenant. The law requires a LL to exercise a "duty of care" to the tenant in respect of everything else. If a tenant is injured as a result of electrics then the LL has breached the duty and may suffer the consequences. The LL can offer as a defence that they had PIR and PAT done and thus have met their duty of care so the injury was an accident not negligence but there is no legal requirement for them to do so although clearly the LL is then gambling with their defence if something happens,
4. I agree the police can be useless at this or any "petty" theft - it is usually dealt with by the Special Constables who are basically volunteers. They give a case no. for the Insurance and then leave it. I think the written warning to the neighbours is the best option but I sympathise!
the law says that opening post delivered to the correct address is not illegal/interfering with it. The police would not even give it a crime number as none has been committed
5. Things may have moved on by now but a letter (or several) is still best to cover yourself. If you want a daily rental agreement, request one, especially if the transfer is left till after your hols. Perhaps you have a friend or family member who will kindly clear your post, water your plants etc - bring them back a nice present from your destination.there is no harm in asking for the moon, don't be disappointed if you don't get it

dear Fporumnewbie it is clear from your posts that you are still adjusting to offering advice on tenancy matters. Please bear in mind that there are matters of law which control tenancy so your opinion and/or well meaning advice can be dangerous if you don't understand what you are talking about

Confusedandneedhelp

Forumnewbie wrote: »

Szam_ you have a lot on your plate and your transfer is quite messy. It seems to me that if you want to wait for the electricity repairs to be completed, you must make it clear to the agent you do not agree to pay double rent. I would even throw in you may need to start looking elsewhere. However to suit your Tenancy End Date (TED), I would accept the new flat without the electricity repair being done. That would enable you see if the agent is only using this as an excuse.

You cannot have a tenancy without possession, so your idea of moving your stuff in without the keys will not work. The Tenancy Commencement Date (TCD) gives you possession, entitles you to move in and requires you start to pay the rent. Of course once it's the dog days of August, it will be difficult to get anything done.

In reply to Confusedandneedhelp, in point order:
1. It is everything to do with the Agent. He is most certainly responsible for the letting part of the landlord's job - otherwise why would the Landlords employ him? Being awkward regarding the TCD is one of the tricks they use and Szam_ is correct in safeguarding himself from double rent. - The letting agent has done their job to the letter. They were asked to market a property and they did. The OP gave them notice which they accepted. The OP has not signed a new tenancy. Where's the wrong doing? The LL is responsible for everything to the tenant. Whether the tenant sues the LL and the LL then sues the LA is between them. But there's nothing to sue for.
2. In this case it is both. However the agent is the one who is dealing with the letting arrangements. The landlord cannot expect the prospective tenant to pay for his void period - if the tenant has everything in writing with the agent, he can reveal all to the landlord at a later date to show he was not to blame for rental loss, but he needs to secure the flat now. To complicate matters the Letting Agent is in some cases the landlord, or these lines can be blurred. Also there are a myriad of different agreements between Letting Agents and landlords, from simply acquiring tenants to managing the whole tenancy including rent arrears - for different percentages of course. No the lines cannot be blurred, you are either an Agent of the LL or a LL. If the LL is also a letting agent, they are still just the LL in any case where they own the property. The lines do not blur. You are speaking from experience, not from law. Your last sentence is accurate but irrelevant. The tenant contracts with the LL not the agent.
3. http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/repairs_and_bad_conditions/health_and_safety/electrical_safety_responsibilities no where does it say that the LL needs to provide a certificate. But it does say the electrics must be safe, which i knew alrady. And which is what the LL is doing!
4. I agree the police can be useless at this or any "petty" theft - it is usually dealt with by the Special Constables who are basically volunteers. They give a case no. for the Insurance and then leave it. I think the written warning to the neighbours is the best option but I sympathise! - Special constables are volunteers, who are empowered exactly like normal police officers and go through extensive training. Dont get confused with community support officers. None the less, they can investigate theft like a regular constable.
5. Things may have moved on by now but a letter (or several) is still best to cover yourself. If you want a daily rental agreement, request one, especially if the transfer is left till after your hols. Perhaps you have a friend or family member who will kindly clear your post, water your plants etc - bring them back a nice present from your destination.[/QUOTE]

Nothing to add to 5, its personal advice.

Forumnewbie

gosh booksurr so it's okay to get personal? In point of fact, I have a post-grad professional qualification in housing law and have practised for many years in the field, both in public and private sector housing including for Estate Agents/Letting Agents. Some of your responses show me yet again that it's not only landlords but tenants too who need legal protection and also what a minefield housing law and practice can be.

A small point - you have picked out "no obligation to do so" regarding the landlord supplying an electricity certificate - yes there are lots of things a landlord is not obliged to do, but they do, because if it came to it, a court would look favourably on one who has provided not only a gas certificate but an electricity one too. It's all about showing reasonableness. Here I would advise one because there are problems with the electricity and the electrician will be attending the property anyway.

szam_

Thanks for the replies, however it has left me a bit confused.

So, if the new property isn't ready by the 9th and we have to keep our things at our current place beyond the 16th (the date we have to be out by), we are liable for an extra months rent (please remember, both properties are with the same LA, and pushed us in to getting the notice in without confirmation there was any other work to do aside from cleaning up and other repairs). It doesn't seem right that despite the fact we were verbally given date, now that there is extra work which was only announced after our notice date and our notice was handed in, we have zero protection? It probably is the way it works, but it seems completely unreasonable, to me at least.

To make things worse, if things do go pear shaped, I have copies of emails to them, but have never received one back, despite them verbally acknowledging notice was given.

Just an aside on the mail stolen bit: yes, it's delivered to the right mail box in a communal area, but even without breaking the mailboxes, someone can easily bend them back and take what's inside. The company that own the building won't repair them or fit better ones. I'd say it's against the law to take mail from a mail box that doesn't belong to you and then try and use a prepaid card, that is in someone elses name, to the tune of 1200 euros (£1000) in the space of a couple of hours. Thankfully it wasn't activated - but the intention was still there.

We're getting a mail redirect to the OH's parents, which is an hours journey away, but at least we don't have to worry about this for the time being.


The LA is now waiting for a second quote (bartering down with two electricians I believe) - however has told my OH it should be ready on time assuming the LL makes a decision - 2 weeks to go and no update on confirmation the work is going to take place.