Giving notice on rental

Daisy_bee

Shelter website seems to support what has been said above.

jjlandlord

Daisy_bee wrote: »

Shelter website seems to support what has been said above.

Where? As far as I know they don't say anything about the issue.
(and in any case, they never quote references...)

G_M

Received from Shelter Legal (not the same as the public advice service).

[FONT=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial]Hello (G_M),[/FONT]

Thanks for your enquiry.

Yes your email is an accurate interpretation on how a tenant can end a statuary (sic) periodic assured shorthold tenancy.

..........

[FONT=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial]I hope this information is useful to you.

Best wishes,

xxxxx

Shelter’s email advice team.[/FONT]

Despite the unequivocal wording of their response, I have replied wih a further query requesting any case law other than that which I quoted.

[FONT=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial] [/FONT]

jjlandlord

Allow me not to rely on such succinct, unclear, and unknown source...

G_M

Hi jj. As I said in post 14, I went back to them, and have received further advice (relating to a hypothetical tenant wishing to end a SPT at end of 1st period). I specifically raised the issue of the requirement for a full months notice:

Hello (G_M)
I have further considered the points you raise and have consulted with our information and training officer.

As previously discussed your query raises some interesting points and has been discussed previously by Shelter solicitors, however we concur with the original advice that your understanding the notice served on 15th March and expiring 15th April would end the tenancy on 14th April - end of the 1st period is correct.

I am not aware of any relevant case law, the requirement for the notice to expire on the first or last day of the tenancy derives from common law.

Under section 5 of the Protection from Eviction notice must be in writing and not less than 28 days.
Section5 (3) of the Housing Act 1988 explains when a tenancy will be periodic.

..... (reference to the Housing Act)

I hope this is useful to you

Regards

Simon

The absence of case law from a higher court relating to the precise circumstance (ending a SPT after 1 period) clearly leaves the matter open to some doubt until tested in court. However where a tenant wishes to end a SPT at that point, he could clearly give notice on the 1st day of the period, relying on the references/advice if required. The LL may, or may not, accept this.

If not, the tenant could either
* test the matter in court, thus resolving the argument or
* have just short of a month to serve a 2nd notice to leave at the end of the 2nd period, thus being no worse off than if he had done so in the first place.

jjlandlord

Thanks G_M.

I am not sure that there is no case law, or this is a point to be resolved in court as I would expect the point to be established.
The issue is not specifically about ending an SPT after 1 period, but more generally the date of service of a notice to quit in a periodic tenancy.

Their reply raises a red flag for me because they seem to attempt to demonstrate that the the notice period would be long enough based on the Protection from Eviction Act: How is the Act relevant? s.5 only puts a minimum on the duration of the notice period, it does not state that a notice to quit is valid if it is at least 4 weeks.

As for the case law regarding the expiry date, it is well-known.


Another relevant point, which is not clear to me is whether the notice period starts on the day of service, or the following day.
In employment-related matters, a notice starts from the day following service. I do not know if this is a general rule.

All in all, they do not seem to know and look like they are just expressing an opinion backed up by poor references, if any.

Eventually, a key point not mentioned, which I brought up before, is that whether the notice's expiry date is given as the last day of a period or the first day of the following period should make no difference since the meaning is the same in both case.
I.e. using the example above, saying that it is OK to give notice on the 15th March if the expiry is stated as 15th April rather than 14th April does not hold water, IMO. Either both expiry dates are valid, or neither are.

G_M

Thanks for the further thoughts

jjlandlord wrote: »

I am not sure that there is no case law, or this is a point to be resolved in court as I would expect the point to be established.
and yet no one seems to know of any. Short of instructing a barrister (at great cost), how can one identify relevant cases? I've looked......

The issue is not specifically about ending an SPT after 1 period, but more generally the date of service of a notice to quit in a periodic tenancy.
correct. Though the impact is significant if a T is never able to leave after 1 period. In other cases, the T can end the tenancy when he wishes, provided he serves notice appropriately.

Their reply raises a red flag for me because they seem to attempt to demonstrate that the the notice period would be long enough based on the Protection from Eviction Act: How is the Act relevant? s.5 only puts a minimum on the duration of the notice period, it does not state that a notice to quit is valid if it is at least 4 weeks.
You're right it's irrelevant - though I did not read their reply as relying on the P fm E Act, simply as a reference to other related law. They also referred to the Housing Act (which I did not quote in full, again, since irrelevant).

As for the case law regarding the expiry date, it is well-known.Yes, so far as it goes.

Another relevant point, which is not clear to me is whether the notice period starts on the day of service, or the following day.
In employment-related matters, a notice starts from the day following service. I do not know if this is a general rule.
I've always understood notice starts on date of service, though I think there is case law covering this in relation to 'business hours' possibly even where served at a 'business address' - not sure off the top of my head.
However if served on last day of a period, to expire on last day of next period, that is a full period, so valid.
Which leaves the isue of served on 1st day/expires on1st day..

All in all, they do not seem to know and look like they are just expressing an opinion backed up by poor references, if any.

Eventually, a key point not mentioned, which I brought up before, is that whether the notice's expiry date is given as the last day of a period or the first day of the following period should make no difference since the meaning is the same in both case.
I.e. using the example above, saying that it is OK to give notice on the 15th March if the expiry is stated as 15th April rather than 14th April does not hold water, IMO. Either both expiry dates are valid, or neither are.

The difference, surely, is that if the T serves on 15th and states expiry on 15th, he is providing a full periods notice.

If the T serves on 15th and states expiry on 14th, he is not providing a full periods notice.

The issue is whether the fact that the tenancy will end on the 14th in either case makes the former example less than a full tenancy period.

And that is where I'd like to see any case law.

jjlandlord

I would not say no-one knows the answer, I would say that the question must be asked to someone competent.

The reply you received states:
"I am not aware of any relevant case law, the requirement for the notice to expire on the first or last day of the tenancy derives from common law."

Common law means case law, and the case law for the expiry date of a notice to quit is well known. I'm not impressed.

"Under section 5 of the Protection from Eviction notice must be in writing and not less than 28 days."

Not relevant.

"Section5 (3) of the Housing Act 1988 explains when a tenancy will be periodic."

Not relevant, and not really correct.

So... Not that great.

I'd be OK whenever the notice may be served, but I need serious references to convince me.

G_M wrote: »

The difference, surely, is that if the T serves on 15th and states expiry on 15th, he is providing a full periods notice.

If the T serves on 15th and states expiry on 14th, he is not providing a full periods notice.

He is providing the same notice in both cases since the notice takes effect at the same time in both cases...
That's what the case law says after all: whether the notice is expressed to expire on the last day of a period or the following day, it means the same thing and takes effect at the same time.

Either both cases are valid or neither are.

martindow

jjlandlord wrote: »

Common law means case law, and the case law for the expiry date of a notice to quit is well known. I'm not impressed.

I took this to refer to contract law in general where one party wants to rescind a contract. Maybe there is case law relating to other areas of law that have established this principle.

franklee

G_M wrote: »

I've always understood notice starts on date of service, though I think there is case law covering this in relation to 'business hours' possibly even where served at a 'business address' - not sure off the top of my head.

Not seen that specifically for tenants but suppose if a tenant follows the deemed service rules Tessa mentions here there's little reason to challenge it:
http://www.landlordlaw.co.uk/landlords/possession-notices/intro