You're fired? any advice?

PoochyChoo

not sure if this is wrong section, if so please move !


but, got a small business, 3 f/t employees, 1 has lyed badly to us about having a driving licence, we found this out, told him to book his test, he said he had, he said he passed his theory 3rd week in may. i got suspicious, asked him last week to bring in his theory certificate, he trys all sorts of 'forgotton it' crap etc, then comes in tonight and says, actually my partner said i wasnt allowed to sit it as we couldnt afford it... so basically he been lying again for all this time, and would of kept it up if i hadnt of persisted with this 'bring in the certificate'... he now told me he booked his theory last thursday.. i check up online and it says 'price effective date 9th july' so am i to assume he actually booked it on the 9th july? which was monday !! lying again... anyone think of a suitable punishment apart from sacking him? i would like to sack him, my husband not keen on sacking him as feels sorry for him, i personally think hes full of s&*^ and is pulling on dh heart strings by making up more lies !! i thought of a 2 week suspension without pay, starting from next monday, but anyone else got any ideas?

edited to add, its a car servcing & repair business !!!

also we have given him (written notice) to sit his test by 1st october or thats it.

motorguy

how long has he been in your employment?

mikewebs

As you have given him a written ultimatum, I think (morally) you should now wait until October 1 to see what he does. After that I think you would have reasonable grounds to dimiss him - although as he lied and said he had a licence and as I would think he needs a licence to carry out ALL the duties his job entails so you could be within your rights to sack him now. Hope you get things sorted.

Savvy_Sue

I would have a good look round the ACAS site or the DTI site to see what you can legally do. Ah, it's no longer the DTI, it's BERR - look at the links to employment guidance!

However, moral of this story is, if a driving licence is essential to do the job, ask for it to be brought to interview and don't appoint if they 'forget' to bring it!

And IMO it would not be unreasonable to ask employees to show their driving licences at regular intervals - at least annually. Presumably you have insurance, and presumably your insurers need to know of any motoring offences committed by those they're insuring.

More than that, check whether your insurers want to know about insurance claims made by your drivers. How you verify the truth of what your employees tell you, I'm not sure, but we have a van at work, insured for any driver over 25 with a clean licence. So every year we ask our volunteer drivers to complete a form listing any convictions and accidents, and we ask them to let us know if any happen during the year. Not many remember!

One of my colleagues recently had a minor accident, phoned the insurers to report this, and they were not pleased to learn that she'd had two accidents in her own car since we'd renewed.

PoochyChoo

Savvy_Sue wrote: »

However, moral of this story is, if a driving licence is essential to do the job, ask for it to be brought to interview and don't appoint if they 'forget' to bring it!

.

true. although not a very good excuse, we had knownt his person from a previous employment so felt that there was no need to push the matter, although we did ask it was the old 'forgot it' 'dog ate it' story then life goes on, until recently when i got suspicious !

he has been with us since startup of our business in nov 04, i have asked a very good friend for some advice and he told me 'XX is a very accomplished liar, his lies go far beyond that driving licence fiasco, you will have to decide whether to accept him + lies or get rid'

i am 7 weeks pregnant, been up all night worring about what to do with him, cross with myself that i am getting worked up about this as i dont need the stress...

although you said morally i should wait till october, which i understand, he already has defunked on this agreement as i forgot to mention this letter was from a while back in april when we informed him he had till the friday to book his theory ! which he informed us on the friday he had booked it for the 3rd sat in may. (all lies !)

i phoned the dvla and they said they cant tell me if driving licences are valid due to data protection act, i phoned the police and unless i saw him driving on a main road they couldnt check and tell me whether the licence was real due to data proctection act ! but like mentioned above, how do you check what people tell you when the data protection act prevents me from finding out the truth !!

i have had to take him off my insurance as hes not got a valid licence, and as i wrote its the sort of job that needs a licence.

thanks for all your replies so far ! i think i am going crazy with the worry !

motorguy

You would need to speak to someone with HR experience - you could be facing a unfair dismissal case if you handle it wrong....

Debt_Free_Chick

Agreed - handle this very, very carefully. You have to jump through all the required disciplinary hoops in order to dismiss, with no chance of being sued in an Employment Tribunal.

Savvy Sue has provided good links.

mikewebs

Hi there again

I just a quick look at the ACAS site (soemwhere I woudl recommend any empler and employee look at when they have employment issues). Anyway, I digress, I found this emanager link for discipline and grievance which I think you should look at here http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1084 . Next I would also recommend you spend some time here: http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=894 .

Hope this sheds some light on the predicament.

NekoZombie

Yes, I'd say that you need to go through the process of 1st (verbal) and 2nd (in writing) formal warnings before you can consider dismissal. You've already done the verbal and the written, so you have to wait and see what happens before you can dismiss him.

ajaxgeezer

Wouldn't lying about such an important part of the necessary skills be that wrong that it would constitute gross misconduct, therefore no warnings would have been necessary?

Savvy_Sue

ajaxgeezer wrote: »

Wouldn't lying about such an important part of the necessary skills be that wrong that it would constitute gross misconduct, therefore no warnings would have been necessary?

That question had crossed my mind: presumably this chap has been driving your car without insurance, and also clients' cars without insurance? If anything had happened, I think that you as the employer would have been found liable, because you had not seen his driving licence. I believe your insurer would have been entitled to cancel your insurance, with immediate effect, and in future you'd have to say "Yes" to the "have you ever had insurance declined?"

I'm not sure that the DVLA position re the DPA is relevant: the simplest way to check a driving licence is to see it, the original, paper and photocard versions if the employee has a new style licence. You can't shop him to the police for having driven on YOUR insurance without a licence, for the reasons stated above.

HOWEVER, I would not sack anyone for gross misconduct without taking legal advice first. And even if the advice is that yes, it is gross misconduct, given that your written warning has given him until October to pass his test, you may not be able to backtrack and sack him before then FOR THIS OFFENCE. Check at what point you'd need to give this person notice and what else you'd need to do: pay any holiday pay he's entitled to for one thing.

BUT if someone who knows him has described him as an accomplished liar, you may get him for some other reason sooner than October. And yes, possibly the fact that he didn't put in for his theory when he said he had MIGHT enable you to go down the GM route.

And of course, if he realises that he IS going to get the sack, that you mean it, and that you are watching him like a hawk, he may lie his way into another job and give notice! You can hope, anyway, and word your reference very carefully.

BTW, I don't know if you have much staff turnover, or what references you have written in the past, but you might want to introduce a policy of only confirming basic information like the dates people worked for you. Because I think that if you only write that kind of reference for him, but do a more descriptive one for someone else, you might appear to be discriminating for some reason other than he's a stupid idiot who's never realised that honesty is the best policy!