Notice to vacate from landlord. Notice period confusion.

Craigiemc

Hi there,

I was wondering if anyone could advise as my partner and I have been given a notice to vacate and are unsure if we've been given the correct notice period.

We started a six month private tenancy agreement in Aug 2012 for 12 months fixed and then to become a rolling lease. Originally the start date was due to be the end of July but the landlady was currently in the property and had a delay which caused the date to keep slipping back. It ended up commencing from August 10th in the end. However, when we signed the agreement at the estate agents, because we asked for the rent due date to tie in with payday, the 26th of the month, we had to pay pro-rata for The time from 9th Aug till 25th and plus a month up front from 26th Aug. as well as the bond and fees. So this meant that our first Standing order date for the rent was 26th of Sept.

We were under the impression that our rental periods were from 26th as that's when our monthly payments are made, however as the landlady wants to move back I to the property, we've been told via text and letter that under section 21, we must vacate by Aug 9th. The letter states we have 2 months notice staring from June 10th.

The confusion we have is:
- We got a text from the landlady on June 12th telling us she wants the property back by Aug 1st. We were in holiday at the time and only got back into the country on 20th June.

- There was a letter waiting for us from the estate agents dated June 10th, but posted on the 13th giving us the 2 months notice from the 10th June to vacate Aug 9th.

Should we have been given 2 months from the date the rent is paid, i.e 26th or from the original date the tenancy began, i.e the 10th of the month?

If it is the 10th then can they back date a letter posted on the 13th or go by a text sent on the 12th? Can the notice be from any date? As when we pay our rent on July 26th, won't that take us through till Aug 25th? Or would we pay a pro-rata payment at the end?

Sorry this have been quite long winded, we've been looking for somewhere else since we got the text so it's been quite worrying as we're not having a lot of luck so far. If we have the extra time it'll be a huge help but we don't want to contest the date if she can make it more difficult somehow.

Many thanks!

BitterAndTwisted

Your rental-periods run from the 10th of the month to the 9th of the month following. In order to have given you sufficient notice the agent should have ensured the S 21 was served before the 9th of June. Not posted the day after. If they had any sense they should have dated and mailed it to arrive with you before or on the 9th. Consequently their S21 is invalid. If you've still got the envelope proving it was franked on the 13th you should protect it with your life!

Still, all this information about what date the S21 was sent and it being invalid you should keep to yourself for the time being.

Was your deposit registered with one of the protection schemes within 30 days and the PI given to you?

Once their "two month' notice" expires, they will need to apply to the court for possession. Getting a court-date can take some time as the courts are often very busy. This should give you and additional month or two to make alternative arrangements. If the court accepts that your S21 is invalid they will have to serve a new one giving you another two months.

G_M

Craigiemc wrote: »

Hi there,

I was wondering if anyone could advise as my partner and I have been given a notice to vacate and are unsure if we've been given the correct notice period.

We started a six month private tenancy agreement in Aug 2012 for 12 months fixed and then to become a rolling lease. Originally the start date was due to be the end of July but the landlady was currently in the property and had a delay which caused the date to keep slipping back. It ended up commencing from August 10th in the end. However, when we signed the agreement at the estate agents, because we asked for the rent due date to tie in with payday, the 26th of the month, we had to pay pro-rata for The time from 9th Aug till 25th and plus a month up front from 26th Aug. as well as the bond and fees. So this meant that our first Standing order date for the rent was 26th of Sept.
You moved in on, and paid rent from, 10th August. So your tenancy started on 10th August.
It was a 6 month tenancy, so ended on 9th Feb 2014.
Your periodic tenancies now run from 10th to 9th each month

We were under the impression that our rental periods were from 26th as that's when our monthly payments are made,
payment date is irrelevant
however as the landlady wants to move back I to the property, we've been told via text and letter that under section 21, we must vacate by Aug 9th.
Correct
The letter states we have 2 months notice staring from June 10th.
is it a S21 (1)(b)? or S21 (4)(a)?
What date did you receive the letter?

The confusion we have is:
- We got a text from the landlady on June 12th telling us she wants the property back by Aug 1st.
You can agree. Or you can refuse.
We were in holiday at the time and only got back into the country on 20th June.

- There was a letter waiting for us from the estate agents dated June 10th, but posted on the 13th giving us the 2 months notice from the 10th June to vacate Aug 9th.
If it was posted on june 13th, 1st class (how do you know when it was posted?) then it is deemed 'served' on you 2 postal days later - June 16th.
June 16 to August 9th is not 2 calender months, nor is it 2 tenancy periods, so whichever S21 was used, the dates are wrong and it is invalid.

Should we have been given 2 months from the date the rent is paid, i.e 26th or from the original date the tenancy began, i.e the 10th of the month?as above

If it is the 10th then can they back date a letter posted on the 13th or go by a text sent on the 12th?
No
Can the notice be from any date?
If a S21 (1)(b) yes.
If a S21 (4)(a) no.
As when we pay our rent on July 26th, won't that take us through till Aug 25th?
In trems of payment, yes.
In terms of notice, no.
Or would we pay a pro-rata payment at the end?
Yes

Read

Ending/Renewing an AST (what happens when the Fixed Term ends?)(What is a Periodic Tenancy?)(How can a LL remove a tenant?)(How can a tenant end a tenancy?)

Craigiemc

BitterAndTwisted wrote: »

Your rental-periods run from the 10th of the month to the 9th of the month following. In order to have given you sufficient notice the agent should have ensured the S 21 was served before the 9th of June. Not posted the day after. If they had any sense they should have dated and mailed it to arrive with you before or on the 9th. Consequently their S21 is invalid. If you've still got the envelope proving it was franked on the 13th you should protect it with your life!

Still, all this information about what date the S21 was sent and it being invalid you should keep to yourself for the time being.

Was your deposit registered with one of the protection schemes within 30 days and the PI given to you?

Once their "two month' notice" expires, they will need to apply to the court for possession. Getting a court-date can take some time as the courts are often very busy. This should give you and additional month or two to make alternative arrangements. If the court accepts that your S21 is invalid they will have to serve a new one giving you another two months.

Thank you very much for the reply, we received an email from the deposit protection scheme to say our deposit was protected. To add the confusion, this was emailed on the 3rd Sept 2012 and that actually states that the start date of the tenancy was 30th Aug 2012.

We're currently looking at places and have been to view two so far, and are actually considering buying also. Obviously this can take some time and we're just worried about being caught in between homes. Is it best not to query anything with the landlord or estate agent as yet?

In my reply to her text I said we couldn't do anything till we were back from holiday, telling her the 21st. She said she would be in touch and was apologetic but I haven't heard from her as yet. Just the letter from the agent, dated 10th June but franked on the 13th.


Thanks again for your help!

G_M

Depends on you.

If you've had a good relationship with the LL, are sympathetic, want to help, then a friendly chat pointing out the errors in dates but suggesting you will leave asap and proposing you agree to mutually end the tenancy at short notice once you are in a position to do so.

You scratch my back I'll scratch yours.

If you do not want to be helpful, simply want to drag out your tenancy as long as possible, say nothing. Do nothing. Wait for the S21 to expire, and stay. Wait for the LL to go to court, then contest the S21. Court dismisses it, nd LL has to start again with new S21 and new 2 months.....

Or something between these 2 extremes.

BitterAndTwisted

It's possible that you could be "caught between two homes" but as the S21 is invalid, and you're not going to tell the this, they won't discover that fact until they get to court.

They can't apply to the court for a possession hearing until August. They probably won't get a court-date until September. They discover their S21 is invalid in court and have to re-serve the S21 giving you another two months notice. That will be November. You don't find anywhere else and don't move out. They re-apply for a new court-date and maybe they get one immediately, maybe they don't. I reckon you could still be there by Christmas. You've got plenty of time to find somewhere to rent or buy.

Please come back to this thread and update about how you get on.

Craigiemc

Thanks for the response, so I'm gathering that we should have been served on or before June 9th for section 21 to be valid. The letter is franked on the envelope "13th June" but the letter is dated 10th if June. The landlady texted on 12th after midnight but we were 2 hours ahead, and she said she wanted to text straight away to give us maximum notice, but to me it did t seem that way.

The letter just says "please find enclosed section 21 giving you the required notice period to vacate the property on or before 9th Aug 2014".

Then under notes it states "on or after the coming to an end of a fixed term assured short hold tenancy, a court must make an order for possession if the landlord has given notice in this form"

Looking at the original 12month agreement, there is actually a section 21 letter included with it, that states we must vacate by 9th Aug last year. She told us at the time that this was standard for a 12 month lease but that they had no intention of taking the property back so we could stay as long as we wanted.


I'm very new to this so apologies if I'm not explaining things too well. I appreciate your help!

Thanks again.

BitterAndTwisted

The Section 21 Notice attached to your tenancy agreement will not have been valid if it was dated before the deposit was registered. This is most probably why they're decided to draw up a new one.

For the time being I would advise you to retain the envelope the second S21 was sent in and NOT TO disclose that you believe it to be invalid.

Craigiemc

Thank you very much, I really appreciate the replies. I'll definitely keep it to myself and carry on looking for somewhere else. When she gets in touch I'll explain that we may need extra time and see what she says. If she won't budge then we'll have to ride it out and let her follow the process.

At least it means we should have sufficient time to make arrangements. I'll definitely update with what happens!

Thanks once again!

Craigiemc

Hi, just an update on the situation.

The process of buying a house is dragging on longer than we'd hoped and it turns out our earliest connection date will be the 22nd of August. We've been keeping the landlady updated with the progress and I'd said we hoped we would be out in two weeks from
Now. She'd said she would give us till the 13th of Aug. However, when I've given her the latest update she's said that she's spoken to the estate agents and they've advised her that we legally have to be out by the 10th and she can't wait any longer.

I've rang the estate agent, who we had spoken to previously about the situation and the invalidity of the section 21. They've said that the landlady had told them she had already informed us of the notice to vacate and the letter was a formality as far as they were concerned. They acknowledged that obviously was not true and have said they have not told her that we legally need to be out by the 10th and that the only thing she could do is refuse a rent extension. However, our standing order as been paid as normal and we're paid up until the 25th.

I haven't told the landlady I believe the section 21 to be invalid as I hoped that it wouldn't get to this point but she's adamant she's having the house back on the 10th. Should I have a conversation with her? The letting agent seem to be staying neutral so I'm not sure what to do next.

Should we say nothing and stay put? I just don't want her turning up on the 10th in a removal van!

booksurr

Craigiemc wrote: »

Should we say nothing and stay put? I just don't want her turning up on the 10th in a removal van!

patently then you need to talk to her !!!!