Luton parking - APCOA - lost directions costs £80

Redx

the 14 day rule is irrelevant as its not relevant land so POFA 2012 doesnt apply, obviously this is pointed out at the popla stage but will not sway apcoa , neither will your other mitigating circumstances in my opinion, they just want the cash and dont care about you or compassion or unjust wording etc

as mentioned above , either deal with it yourself and set in for the next 3 months of dealing with it, or pay parkingticketappeals £16 to do it all for you

only a fool pays them and the trouble with that attitude is they keep sc*mming people with their false pcn,s like in your case

so its either spend the time on it yourself, or pay £16 for a knowledgeable person or persons to deal with it on your behalf !!

so I agree with folkiedave , as you seem unsure , pay £16 , but please do not pay these exorbitant punishment fees

bazster

myszkotka wrote: »

Hi All,

Thanks for all responses. I understand from the forum that I should send the template appeal letter to the PCN. Does it make sense to attach some evidence that might help my case:
1) the fact that I had pre-booked ticket for long stay car park, perhaps I can send them a copy

Pointless, that will make no difference at all. You are making the mistake of thinking you are dealing with reasonable people. You aren't, they just want your money.

myszkotka wrote: »

2) the fact that the letter's date of issue is 03/06/2014 and the "alleged contravention" has happened on the 17/05/2014 (that's few days over 14 days)

Completely irrelevant I'm afraid.

myszkotka wrote: »

3) the fact the sign there (I checked using google maps street view) says: "No stopping at any time to drop off or pick up" and no one has entered or left the car

By all means refer to signage problems, but the Google Streetview images are years old, there's no guarantee that the same signs are still there.

myszkotka wrote: »

If they refuse my appeal, would I have to then pay 100% fine instead of the 50% they allow me now?

They will almost certainly refuse your appeal, they're not interested in your explanations, they just want your money. But you still don't pay them, you don't have to pay anything, they aren't the police or a local authority, they are just some jumped-up private company trying to chisel money out of you. And stop this nonsense about them "allowing" you anything: they are entitled to nothing, not 100%, not 50%, not 1%, so you pay them what you owe them, which is 0%.

myszkotka wrote: »

I don't know if I can spend that much time fighting this if I loose the first appeal. My wife just wants to pay. I think it is honestly unfair since I already had pre-booked long stay parking...

You and your wife really aren't getting this. It's NOT a bona fide fine or charge of any description, it's a meaningless speculative invoice that you don't need to pay, and the appeals system is a charade. Clearly you haven't read the huge quantities of information on this forum, or if you've read it you haven't understood it. Do you pay Nigerians who send you emails asking for money? No? Well an invoice from APCOA is on about the same level as one of those.

Facts:

They cannot hold the registered keeper of the vehicle liable for the charge. The roads at Luton Airport are subject to statutory control (byelaws), therefore the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 is not applicable and there is no keeper liability. If you look at the stupid invoice you got from APCOA it merely invites the keeper to pay, it doesn't say that the keeper MUST pay. That's because they can't make the keeper pay and they know it.

So, only the driver can be held liable for the charge, AND THEY HAVE NO IDEA WHO THAT WAS. I know what you're going to say now: they've got photographs. So what? Even if the driver's physiognomy can be made out (unlikely) they don't have a database of every single face in the country so they've still no idea who was driving.

So, given that they can't hold the keeper liable and they don't know who the driver was, you can if you wish completely ignore them. You'll get a few increasingly-hysterical letters from debt collectors which you can file and forget, and then you will never hear from them again. The only way they could take things further is to sue someone in the county court, but they don't know who to sue. APCOA almost never brings court proceedings, and they certainly aren't going to start with a case where they are simply guessing who to sue.

The alternative is to appeal. They refuse appeals. They are scum, they don't care what you say, they just want your money. You don't appeal to APCOA to win the appeal, because you almost certainly won't win, you appeal to APCOA so as to get a PoPLA code from them. Then, when you've got a PoPLA code, you appeal to PoPLA and you win.

So, if you are inclined to appeal rather than ignore, just get on with it. Stop over-thinking it, because it doesn't really matter what you put in your appeal, you are expecting it to be rejected anyway. A one-liner is fine, something like:

I appeal as the registered keeper on the grounds that Luton Airport is not "relevant land" for the purposes of POFA 2012 Schedule 4, therefore the registered keeper cannot be held liable.

There you go, I just wrote your appeal for you. The crucial thing is what you don't say i.e. you do not tell them who was driving.

Then, if/when you get a rejection, you come back here and find (or ask for) a template appeal to PoPLA that will blow APCOA out of the water.

Or, just ignore them.

Coupon-mad

myszkotka wrote: »

If they refuse my appeal, would I have to then pay 100% fine instead of the 50% they allow me now? I don't know if I can spend that much time fighting this if I loose the first appeal. My wife just wants to pay. I think it is honestly unfair since I already had pre-booked long stay parking...

Oh give over... you do not want to pay and neither does your wife. Please wise up, Bazster has even shown you the newspaper article you can throw at APCOA as well which shows that drivers looking for directions briefly, are not to be 'penalised' at Luton Airport!

And the NEWBIES thread has the first appeal template - you could copy & paste it in less than one minute.

You could even just search the forum for two words 'Luton APCOA' and would find more than one thread with both stage appeal letters shown, where a person has already won hands down at POPLA, as we have done 100% for more than a YEAR. You could copy both letters and the scam would be cancelled.

You are not getting it yet I fear. This is a scam. This is easily beaten at POPLA.

myszkotka

Hello,

Thank you for responses and time. I really appreciate the advice you guys give here but may I give a few comments from a "Newbie"?

I found it hard to find reliable information, beforehand I googled this subject and found few websites, one Facebook page, with detailed info, that was suggesting I should just ignore the letter. I then found this website and believe to be most accurate. I do however think it would newbies may find it overwhelming to have to read and digest so many different information, being pointed to read one NEWBIE post, then the other persons post, then to later be told we should read a month's worth of posts to find out how our chances look like, what to expect etc. By the way, because I am genuinely busy my wife said - "just pay this and be done with it, don't waste your time". Some other people may have the same approach so if they knew from one post: you will win, this is all you need to do in simple steps will get you to win in XX% - this would help decide. Also, it would be nice to know how much time does the whole process take.

What newbies like me need is only one page - not many different places and links - of steps, I will list here a simple version that I think you could use to update your NEWBIE post to save you time having to respond to questions of people like me and to make newbies' life easier: (this is what I understand the steps as and how I also followed this)

PCN companies are just scammers, here is the way to deal with them:
1) Respond to PCN company with the following letter - here could be a link or pasted version of template letter, perhaps also the article that Bazster kindly provided
a)Do not bother explaining any circumstances that may be in your favour as PCN companies DO NOT CARE, they only want you to pay
b) letter should be sent by non recorded 2nd class post (or 1st), you just need to obtain proof of postage. Do not send recorded delivery (not sure why but someone suggested this)
2) Once the PCN company responds (and rejects your letter) ask for POPLA number
3) Ask for help here on forum how to deal with POPLA

ALTERNATIVELY:
1) Pay £16 to a company that will do all for you: here should be a link to some company that can do this.


Now what I can't say here is what are the chances of ending up to have to pay anything in any of these steps in case anything went wrong. Ie. I still am not 100% clear as to what can go wrong, I know you guys are saying I will not have to pay, but some of you said in other posts that there might be a chance I would not succeed so this is not clear part. Also when at POPLA stage, what are the chances of this going wrong, I know they are not looking at any mitigating circumstances - they only care about the law. I do hope and assume the reason you encourage me to go through this is because I have big chances of winning...


So to just re-confirm - the intention of this message is to help you guys save time and help other newbies. Please do not treat my comments in any way as criticism - only as my newbie's observation. I REALLY appreciate all the help.

Redx

the problem is that there are too many scenarios and different companies and rules and contracts and types of private land to make what you ask feasible

ie:- it always depends :_ on ............. blah blah

there is a flowchart in that newbies thread

no mention of popla in the appeal because popla is not the only appeals process so that would mislead people


1) the template letter is in post #1 of page 1 of the NEWBIES sticky thread

2) you do not have to ask for an appeal code , it is mandatory for them to issue it if they reject your appeal (for all those signed up to one of the appeals services)

3) too much reliance on links in your post, what you should do is spend the time to research and use the forum to find what you need

consequences ? - worst case - you end up in small claims court and have to defend an mcol or small claim for trespass or damages or an unpaid "invoice" dressed up as a contract you entered into

that would be true no matter what the invoice is about, could be a plumber asking you to pay for the bathroom he fitted , or for a car you bought and did not pay for , anything really (it has nothing to do with parking or stopping on a private road or any other aspect you care to name)

how long does it take ? , it can take between 6 to 10 weeks ; or 1 to 2 years in some cases where it has been appealed ! - the maximum is 6 years in england and wales due to the small claims court process time limits (a maximum of 6 years to bring a claim)

if you read enough threads you will see how diverse it gets , so after 12 months of reading (in my case) I have some idea on what goes on but nowhere near an "expert" , so a newbie has a lot of catching up to do , but as these parking companies also infest supermarkets and hospitals and retail parks more and more people get caught out so this wont be your last ticket I would think as its much too easy to get caught out in aldi or asda or lidl or your local hospital etc

read parking pranksters blogs , watch bbc watchdog tonight to see how complicated a mess it is but dont expect a 5 minute tv slot to address this complicated issue in full , they could spend a week on it and only scratch the surface

that NEWBIES thread has been honed over the last 16 months and continues to be altered to suit changing events so anything of noteworthy status is always added or included

I do not believe we are here to teach people how to use the forum (or any forum) , on the same basis that if I sell you a car I do not have to teach you how to drive

bazster

Yours is exactly the kind of case that demonstrates why there isn't a one-stop-shop on all this. APCOA at Luton Airport is almost unique, the only other site like it is APCOA at Birmingham Airport.

The unique combination of characteristics is:

- The absence of keeper liability
- That the operator does not claim keeper liability
- That it's not parking.

Even other airport sites are different to these two. For instance, VCS at Liverpool and Doncaster do (wrongly) claim that the keeper is liable.

Other sites have byelaws (railway property, docks) but also have other characteristics absent from airports, e.g. railway sites don't tend to try it on with non-parking cases. Most sites don't have byelaws at all and hence are nothing like airports - and, inevitably, the basic templates here are designed for the vast majority of non-airport sites.

Nonetheless it's not hard to find information specific to Luton Airport, there are hundreds of threads about it.

It's all very well one person making a calculation about whether it's worth his/her time fighting, but every person who pays these racketeers encourages and enables them to make other people's lives a misery too. That's why people around here get so irritated when someone suggests they might give in to the bullies.

You might also bear in mind that no-one gets paid for being here, so if you don't like the advice or the way it's presented you can of course have a full refund.

myszkotka

Obviously, as I mentioned earlier, I am not complaining. I was rather looking to help but I can see it is not that easy. I do appreciate all the help I was offered and for that reason I will not give in to the bullies and will not pay. I will wait for response from them and not bother you guys until I have to.

Thanks and keep up the great work.

Redx

myszkotka wrote: »

Obviously, as I mentioned earlier, I am not complaining. I was rather looking to help but I can see it is not that easy. I do appreciate all the help I was offered and for that reason I will not give in to the bullies and will not pay. I will wait for response from them and not bother you guys until I have to.

Thanks and keep up the great work.

excellent

in your case, this has been dealt with dozens of times and so all the relevant issues have already been addressed, appeal templates are all over the place although the one in the NEWBIES sticky thread is sufficient , then use post 3 , click on the links and find an apcoa luton popla appeal that is 20147 and use it at the appeal stage, or use the search word apcoa or luton in the search box to find dozens of previous examples or ongoing appeals , then use one of them to appeal to popla

hardly rocket science when its all been laid out for you and is 2 copy and paste into notepad appeals , with 10 minutes of fine tuning for the popla appeal and none for the initial apcoa appeal

the hardest apcoa luton appeal was the first one under the latest rules , until finding out they dont apply and its same as previous (pre oct 2012) , lol

the point here is that your situation is no different than the many scores or hundreds of previous examples but the latest appeals you require have been honed to almost perfection

if you read the PE cambridge thread you will see what the long terms effects can be , where mr beavis is battling mr butthead , in court

but yours is a different scenario entirely , as its not relevant land so they should apply the byelaws to any transgressions on their private roads or dropoff or pickup points , not "parking"

airports probably figure in 1% of the total number of private parking areas dealt with in that NEWBIES thread, as the vast majority will be retail parks and shops and businesses etc

myszkotka

Hi,

I have responded to APCOA using "THE FIRST APPEAL TO THE PPC" from the newbies post. Also attached a printout of newspaper article about Katy Lee who challenged the fine and won.
I have proof of postage from Post Office 11/06/2014

On 06/08/14 I have response from Roxburghe instead - APCOA never responded:
"We have been instructed by the above (...) that they have not received payment or any valid dispute and therefore it is now too late to pay the discounted amount or challenge this notice."
I as a registered keeper "could be liable for this charge" under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.
"As a debt resolution specialist, we are looking to work with you (...), but we do require you to contact our offices(...)".
They demand now £128 (£80 + £48 admin fee).

I have not received POPLA code.
Should I write back to APCOA, or Roxbourghe or both, asking for POPLA code and if yes, is there also a template or can it be a one line letter asking for the code?
Would it also make any sense to complain to Luton airport or to write to a newspaper?

Redx

complain to whoever you like but whatever you do the FIRST ONE should be the BPA enclosing copies of your proof of postage and the appeal letter and pcn etc

also read the NEWBIES sticky thread, especially the part about debt collectors and the bit about BPA complaints