Capital2Coast - IPC / IAS appeal help

edited 1 June 2014 at 9:12PM in Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking
22 replies 3.1K views
trip911trip911 Forumite
7 Posts
Hello,

Having read the sticky threads I think I am at the point where I need to post to gain the wealth of knowledge this forum seems to hold. If i've missed something my apologies.

In February 2014 a windscreen "Fixed Charge Notice" was placed onto the vehicle involved by Captial2Coast Parking Management. The vehicle was parked on private land outside a block of flats where the driver had gone inside to collect an item after being invited to park by one of the flat occupants.

The FCN was appealed to Captial2Coast using the template letter on the sticky thread here and today it was rejected by Captial2Coast by an "Impartial" appeals board (not surprised and i'm not sure the company that issued it can be impartial somehow...).

I understand that the next step is an appeal to the IPC/IAS (same people from what i've seen... impartial?) but having read the forum recently it seems this wont be as simple as the POPLA appeals process...

Any advice on the appeal would be grateful.

First off I have noticed that Captial2Coast are stating this is a "breach of contract" and have already stated that a pre estimate of loss is not required. However I fail to see how a £100 charge is acceptable for parking in a free car park (explained below).

From what i've read of the IPC codes of practice I think the following points would be the best for an appeal (I understand the actual what happened on the day doesn't really matter at this point?)

1 - The flat occupant gave the driver permission to park. This occupant is allowed to access and use of the car park and can obtain a permit for FREE if they want one - so no loss of money. The occupant also pays towards maintenance/ground rent etc. of the block.

2 - Captial2Coast have stated that the landowner has given them permission to provide the parking scheme however provide no evidence of this, so it is only their word on this. I strongly suspect that it is in fact a managing agent of the block of flats that have given them the permission and not the land owner - hence no proof given despite it being asked for. How can someone accept to pay a contract if not all the evidence is presented to them?

3 - Whilst there is signage in the car park it does not conform to the IPC codes of practice;

It stats that the first line of the text should be "Permit Holders Only" or similar. It then states any text below should be no smaller than 50% the size of the text above and state words similar to "Private Land".

The sign in question (which I can post up if needed) does not conform to this, the second line of text is less that 50% the size of the first line and is simply mass of small text and not easy to read at all as you enter the car park and easily missed. Crucially this is where it states you are entering a contract by parking. The sign is NOT displayed as you enter the block, surely a good place to leave one to make sure the driver is aware of the contract?

4 - The wording of the sign breaches the code of practice.... slightly... The codes of practice state the sign should read "Private land" however the sign says "This land is Private Property". Bit weak I know but goes to show they arent following the codes of practice fully...?

5 - The codes of practice state that predatory tactics are not acceptable. The vehicle in question is a company vehicle and is sign written with a contact telephone number. Despite this shining beacon shouting out to be called to have the car moved... surprisingly it was not rung and a ticket issued instead. Personally I think that is a predatory tactic as if the "patrol officer" had called the number the car could have been moved within seconds. This also ties in with the "Professionalism" point mentioned in the codes of practice. Money grabbing?

6 - Whilst the reject appeal letter from Captial2Coast informs you of the right to appeal to the IPC/IAS it does not mention it is time critical... not very professional.

7 - At no point is there any length of time mentioned on how long the vehicle was seen parked for - surely this is relevant to how much can reasonably be demanded?

Time is short this evening so this is all I have been able to pick out so far, i'm sure there will be a few more bits (for example more on the text size and approach speeds) but any advice of what to do next would be grateful.

I will be drafting an appeal over the weekend and will post it up ASAP. If more information is needed please let me know.

Thank you in advance!
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Replies

  • Coupon-madCoupon-mad
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    First off I have noticed that Captial2Coast are stating this is a "breach of contract" and have already stated that a pre estimate of loss is not required. However I fail to see how a £100 charge is acceptable for parking in a free car park.
    You should win then as the IPC don't allow that business model of 'breach of contract'. You need to state this clearly as your first point of appeal.


    What do the signs say please, have you got a picture? Please do post it for us to see.


    I would just delete this one as I think it doesn't have legs:
    4 - The wording of the sign breaches the code of practice.... slightly... The codes of practice state the sign should read "Private land" however the sign says "This land is Private Property". Bit weak I know but goes to show they arent following the codes of practice fully...?
    An IPC IAS appeal must be in by day 21 so how long have you got now?
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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  • trip911trip911 Forumite
    7 Posts
    Thanks for the reply.

    I wasn't aware that business model wasn't allowed, must have missed that on the codes of practice (or misunderstood!). The letter of rejection of the appeal from Captial2Coast clearly states they see it as a breach of contract as the vehicle breached the "conditions of restrictions in the area".

    Here is a link to a picture of the sign - sorry couldn't use the image/link button as I'm a new user, hopefully a copy/paste of the below will work ok (just tested and seems to work)

    s28.postimg.org/5m7nilw4d/Parking_Sign.jpg

    Any advice from whats displayed on it?

    I did think that point 4 was a bit weak and I'll take your advice to leave that out, thanks.

    I have 20 days, including today, remaining to lodge the appeal.

    I also read from Parking Prankster that you now no longer have to state who was driving on the IAS appeals form, something thats not yet been updated on the form you get from the website... bit naughty!

    Working on a draft appeals letter at the moment too.
  • edited 31 May 2014 at 7:14PM
    Dee140157Dee140157 Forumite
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    edited 31 May 2014 at 7:14PM
    [url]Http://s28.postimg.org/5m7nilw4d/Parking_Sign.jpg[/url]

    An interesting use of full stops in the sign along with an inability to write in sentences. And that's just my thoughts on the English grammar. (Yes I know both these statements are not good English grammar either, but I won't offer bonus points for the incorrect English used.)

    Definitely mentions contractual agreement!
    Newbie thread: go to the top of this page and find these words: Main site > MoneySavingExpert.com Forums > Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking. Click on words Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking. Newbie thread is the first post. Blue New Thread button is just above it to left.
  • edited 31 May 2014 at 7:16PM
    trip911trip911 Forumite
    7 Posts
    edited 31 May 2014 at 7:16PM
    Thanks Dee.

    Just saw your update, I take it that strengthens the case regarding breach of contract business model!
  • edited 31 May 2014 at 8:14PM
    Dee140157Dee140157 Forumite
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    edited 31 May 2014 at 8:14PM
    I'm no expert on IPC, wait for Coupon-Mad to come back. I am still learning and can post on simple things, but am still getting to grips with a lot of stuff here. I learn more each day. But I can post links such as your image! Give me a year and hopefully I will be answering questions such as this.

    What I do note is that Capital Connect only become members of IPC in Nov 2013. Looking at the signs I wonder if they have simply placed the IPC signs over older BPA ones. This may mean the wording is not appropriate for the IPC contract they now have.
    Newbie thread: go to the top of this page and find these words: Main site > MoneySavingExpert.com Forums > Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking. Click on words Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking. Newbie thread is the first post. Blue New Thread button is just above it to left.
  • trip911trip911 Forumite
    7 Posts
    Thank you though Dee. I think you might be right, it does look like the IPC logo has been stuck on, I'm going to have a look tomorrow I think...
  • edited 31 May 2014 at 10:17PM
    Dee140157Dee140157 Forumite
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    edited 31 May 2014 at 10:17PM
    Oh by the way this is not a site I would number, would you? (Read the top right of the sign!)
    I'd like to pop in at 3.30am and see if it is actually patrolled at all times.
    I wonder what is applicable?
    OH AND I'M NOT DEAF...
    Merely by reading the sign am I agreeing to a contract? This is a separate "paragraph" from previous sentence. (I use the word paragraph loosely).
    I wonder what level of education the person who wrote this sign actually has. My guess is GCSE in English grade G or below.
    Newbie thread: go to the top of this page and find these words: Main site > MoneySavingExpert.com Forums > Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking. Click on words Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking. Newbie thread is the first post. Blue New Thread button is just above it to left.
  • edited 31 May 2014 at 10:23PM
    Coupon-madCoupon-mad
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    edited 31 May 2014 at 10:23PM
    Well from what I have seen, the IAS do like to be pedantic about wording on signs and my thoughts are:

    - you are only contractually agreeing to be issued with a fixed charge notice.
    - nothing about contractually agreeing to pay a penny - which is surely the important point of any PCN contractual 'agreement'!
    - the sign mentions adding a £60 administration fee but the POFA does not allow for keeper liability for any sum except the parking charge.

    And the driver was loading an item which certainly must be allowed by the landowner - indeed how does a delivery driver or contact of a resident, collect a permit if they can't leave the car to get it on arrival? It is unclear because the sign doesn't cover any exemption for collecting/loading or delivering. If a vehicle has to have hazard lights on if delivering/collecting then the sign must say so, and if there was a grace period then a lack of parking period on the PCN not only suggests no grace period was allowed but no observation time was allowed at all.

    And with a missing 'period of parking' the PCN has a fundamental flaw, is not POFA compliant - so you can argue there is no keeper liability.

    Then add your other points and show us your draft so we can review it.

    Where did you notice that Captial2Coast are stating this is a "breach of contract" and have already stated that a pre estimate of loss is not required? Is it on the rejection letter or Notice to Keeper letter or on the PCN? Or did you appeal straight away and got no NTK? Can we see a pic of the documents as that might show more flaws!

    Dee140157 wrote: »
    I'm no expert on IPC, wait for Coupon-Mad to come back. I am still learning and can post on simple things, but am still getting to grips with a lot of stuff here. I learn more each day. But I can post links such as your image! Give me a year and hopefully I will be answering questions such as this.
    As an aside, that's just how I started on pepipoo forum when I ventured onto their 'Council PCNs' board having never appealed a Council PCN in my life! Fast forward about six months and I was up to speed and now I can answer any query on there about Council PCN wording flaws, towaways, adjudications etc. You'll be the same on here, Dee, if you're interested in this area of scams, CoPs & the law it all makes so much sense when you stick around and see the same things said every week.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • trip911trip911 Forumite
    7 Posts
    Thank you for your reply Coupon-mad,
    Coupon-mad wrote: »
    Where did you notice that Captial2Coast are stating this is a "breach of contract" and have already stated that a pre estimate of loss is not required? Is it on the rejection letter or Notice to Keeper letter or on the PCN? Or did you appeal straight away and got no NTK? Can we see a pic of the documents as that might show more flaws!

    The first mention of a breach of contract was on the soft appeals rejection letter received yesterday. We awaited a NtK which was received and was in the form of a "Formal Demand" and the soft appeal was only made after this was received.

    Here are two links to both letters (everything removed... unless I missed something!);

    s4.postimg.org/5v4n8s8kd/Nt_K.jpg
    s28.postimg.org/8df483nq5/Soft_Appeal_Rejection.jpg

    There was a reverse to the rejection letter which just finished the sentence with the word "rate" then "Appeals Department" and "Captial 2 Coast" and no signature. Didn't see the need to put that page up!

    Four photos were also included; 1 of the sign and 3 of the vehicle.

    I will add the points you mentioned tomorrow after I've read a bit more about the POFA and post up the draft tomorrow afternoon/evening.

    Thank you again.
  • Coupon-madCoupon-mad
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    We awaited a NtK which was received and was in the form of a "Formal Demand"
    Here it is in all its glory! Has the word 'contravention' = BREACH OF CONTRACT (not allowed by the IPC Code).

    http://s4.postimg.org/5v4n8s8kd/Nt_K.jpg

    and the rejection letter, which also has the word 'contravention' and the words 'breach of parking conditions' (not allowed by the IPC Code).

    http://s28.postimg.org/8df483nq5/Soft_Appeal_Rejection.jpg

    'the pre-estimate of loss does not apply on a breach of contract'!!!! Hilariously stupid. Quote those words to the IAS, the adjudicator will tear his hair out!

    And because the 'formal demand' doesn't have the statutory wording needed from paragraph 8 of Schedule 4 (linked in the NEWBIES thread, spot the omissions!) ergo no POFA compliant NTK was served and so there's no keeper liability!

    Loads to get your teeth into here. What a mess.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
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