Scaffolding/right of access to garden

Jenniefour

moneyistooshorttomention wrote: »

But they will be getting the benefit of the disruption. OP gets absolutely nothing for all their disruption (unless they decide to allow the scaffolding and charge for that "rental of their land"). Personally, I would think even £50 per week was darn all for rental of my land, considering the amount of disruption I would endure and no benefit at all for me from it. If someone said to me "£400 for 8 weeks of such acute disruption to you and you yourself won't get any benefit from it" the response would be "No deal, I'd want loads more than that for putting up with so much".

OP probably is going to derive some benefit - if she shares the responsibility for repairing and maintaining the roof, including share of cost. No builder worth their salt is going to do a loft conversion without making sure the roof is in very good order and doing any needed repairs. Let the first heavy rainfall spoil the new insulation and decoration? Of course not. Any needed roof repairs over the conversion are normally a bog standard part of the job. So OP could well be quids in on that - barring something serious and unexpected - then she can look forwards to no major roof repairs (and the cost) and scaffolding in her garden for quite a number of years.

Jenniefour

happygirllucky wrote: »

I think my issue is that they've been abroad for years, have seen how much property prices have risen in the area, are going to do the work with no disruption to themselves, then sell up and move on. If they were neighbours we knew/were planning to stay/had been here a while, I might be more understanding. The way in which they phrased the email really annoyed me as well - it was basically a statement of intent, rather than a 'could we do this'.

OP, lots of folks would be extremely pleased with a situation where the neighbours rarely live there for years in flats. No noise, no hassle. As long as they're meeting their responsibilities (including financial) as leaseholders then I'm not sure how them not being there is an issue for you. It is beginning to sound (even though that may not be your intention at all) like you're looking for a reason to obstruct purely from envy. Yes, property prices have gone up - yours too.

If the scaffolding were being erected to undertake major roof repairs would you be saying 'no' to that?

OK, so they worded their email in a way you didn't like - they stated their intention. Which most likely means they do actually own the attic space as part of their own lease and do not need your permission to go ahead with the conversion. They are not bad for doing this - it is courteous, at the very least, to give proper notice of intention - they have done this. And they should have asked your permission to erect scaffolding in your garden, so I wonder if this is the bit where they stated intention rather than ask permission?

I think I'll get a solicitor to check our deeds, to make sure we're not obligated to do this in way, then say no. I just don't want it in my garden.

OP, you need to get your solicitor to check the lease and articles, not the deeds. This will spell out exactly what lease holders need permission for and so on. It may be that they do need your permission and your solicitor will let you know.

The front garden is a possibility - they'd have to move a fence and put it back afterwards; I think they're going for our garden as the quick and cheaper option.

This may be an assumption. If it's true then you can ask that the scaffolding be put at the front.

OP, don't lose sight of the fact that you will be getting a roof overhaul out of this, which will save you money for a number of years to come if you also share responsibility for roof repairs. Do you?

happygirllucky

I need to check that the responsibility for the roof has been allocated to them - trying to get the paperwork pertaining to the loft conversion. It was all agreed before we moved in....

Thanks again for everyone's thoughts.

Jenniefour

Agreed with previous owner of your flat? And agreed by previous owner to allow allow scaffolding in your garden to do it? Then the previous owner should have made sure you knew about this prior to you signing on the dotted line, through the conveyancing solicitors. This might not have happened, which would explain why you're feeling miffed about it, I would too. Ask your solicitor about 'reasonable consent' and how this might apply (or not) to this situation. The solicitor who did your conveyancing sounds like best port of call next to go through all this.

Good luck!

moneyistooshorttomention

happygirllucky wrote: »

I think my issue is that they've been abroad for years, have seen how much property prices have risen in the area, are going to do the work with no disruption to themselves, then sell up and move on. If they were neighbours we knew/were planning to stay/had been here a while, I might be more understanding. The way in which they phrased the email really annoyed me as well - it was basically a statement of intent, rather than a 'could we do this'.

I think I'll get a solicitor to check our deeds, to make sure we're not obligated to do this in way, then say no. I just don't want it in my garden.

The front garden is a possibility - they'd have to move a fence and put it back afterwards; I think they're going for our garden as the quick and cheaper option.

You are possibly perfectly correct, ie they have decided to put you out totally unnecessarily just in order to save themselves money.

What are they getting out of this? = saving themselves money

What are you getting out of this? = loads of aggravation/lack of use of garden/certain damage to garden

Some people have advocated giving in to them just for the sake of neighbourly relations....well there aren't any neighbourly relations to maintain/improve anyway if they aren't actually there anyway.

Just say "No".

It's not up to a previous owner to dictate how you are to live in your own home. The thought wouldn't even cross my mind of trying to tell the new owner of my last house what they should and shouldn't do and making agreements on their behalf. I doubt whether they can do so in law. Even if the previous owner DID agree...did they do so in writing and does that state words to the affect of "...and this agreement is binding on my successor". I doubt it...

happygirllucky

Thanks again for all the helpful replies; the fact that the loft permission was sold - and the fact that we don't have any paperwork
on the matter does make it more complicated.The concept of 'reasonable consent' is an interesting one. We're in the process of contacting local solicitors who deal in property matters, but are not ruling out going back to the solicitors that did the conveyancing work. With hindsight, perhaps we should have dug more deeply into the reference to the loft conversion aspect - but it only bothers us in any way because they want to use our garden for the scaffolding.

I have a nasty feeling that they won't have taken on the responsibility for the roof - I suspect the other freeholders knew they were moving out soon and just wanted a bit of easy cash. Not that I blame them for that. What they paid for the loft conversion wasn't very much in the grand scheme of things.

Even if they did stay in the flat - and I can't see it happening - we only bump into the current tenants occasionally. The aggravation of having our garden trashed, not being able to use garden for a few months and loss of light into our flat just doesn't make it worthwhile for us. Just need to double-check our obligations before we say no.

happygirllucky

Thanks again for all the helpful replies; the fact that the loft permission was sold - and the fact that we don't have any paperwork
on the matter does make it more complicated.The concept of 'reasonable consent' is an interesting one. We're in the process of contacting local solicitors who deal in property matters, but are not ruling out going back to the solicitors that did the conveyancing work. With hindsight, perhaps we should have dug more deeply into the reference to the loft conversion aspect - but it only bothers us in any way because they want to use our garden for the scaffolding.

I have a nasty feeling that they won't have taken on the responsibility for the roof - I suspect the other freeholders knew they were moving out soon and just wanted a bit of easy cash. Not that I blame them for that. What they paid for the loft conversion wasn't very much in the grand scheme of things.

Even if they did stay in the flat - and I can't see it happening - we only bump into the current tenants occasionally. The aggravation of having our garden trashed, not being able to use garden for a few months and loss of light into our flat just doesn't make it worthwhile for us. Just need to double-check our obligations before we say no.

happygirllucky

Sorry for double post!

rustyboy21

I cannot see there NOT being any provision for consent to do routine maintenance on the roof, which would facilitate scaffolding. It is a natural thing to have to do with a roof.


Go and see your solicitor and see what he can fathom out. It looks as if, you have no relationship with the owners and that you have already decided that you don't want the work doing, so no one is going to change your mind on this. If consent is there, then all you can do is ensure that there is as little disruption to your life as possible, nets/boarding etc. Also look at times of work, ie no weekend work, 8.00 to 5pm etc and parking of the vans outside your property. This will have to be dictated to the other party, they will have to inform the builders.


I cannot see it NOT going ahead though, has it needed planning permission?

Jenniefour

happygirllucky wrote: »

Thanks again for all the helpful replies; the fact that the loft permission was sold - and the fact that we don't have any paperwork
on the matter does make it more complicated.

Not sure what you mean when you say loft permission was sold. Are you referring to permission for structural alterations being granted by the freeholder? Or to the fact that the loft space for the conversion has been sold to the owners who are now converting it? Either way, that's all in the past. Buying roof space and getting permission to make structural alterations are all perfectly normal transactions.

The concept of 'reasonable consent' is an interesting one. We're in the process of contacting local solicitors who deal in property matters, but are not ruling out going back to the solicitors that did the conveyancing work.

They will be able to advise on how to proceed, according to the contents and wording of the lease and other relevant documents. Essentially, you need to know if you are allowed, according the terms of the lease, to refuse consent. If you are allowed to refuse consent then that would be a negotiating point with your neighbours - providing the work couldn't be carried out otherwise. Nothing to negotiate if scaffolding can go on the front and that would be your preferred option anyway.

With hindsight, perhaps we should have dug more deeply into the reference to the loft conversion aspect - but it only bothers us in any way because they want to use our garden for the scaffolding.

Pleased to hear you were informed about the loft conversion prior to completing but you should have been informed about the scaffolding as well - not by the people having the work done but by the vendor and/or person dealing with enquiries from your solicitor e..g. Chair of the Management Committee.

I have a nasty feeling that they won't have taken on the responsibility for the roof - I suspect the other freeholders knew they were moving out soon and just wanted a bit of easy cash.
Not that I blame them for that. What they paid for the loft conversion wasn't very much in the grand scheme of things.

Not sure exactly what you're referring to here but sorting out any roof repairs over the area of the conversion is all normal part and parcel of the job for the builders. So that's not an issue. If you're referring to the sale of the roof space then that's all done and dusted. It's not relevant. What is relevant is your position as the new leaseholder vis a vis the scaffolding.

Even if they did stay in the flat - and I can't see it happening - we only bump into the current tenants occasionally. The aggravation of having our garden trashed, not being able to use garden for a few months and loss of light into our flat just doesn't make it worthwhile for us. Just need to double-check our obligations before we say no.

If the scaffolding goes up in your garden then getting it trashed is not an option - as advised before take photo's and get a written agreement to restore everything as it was prior to the work.

OP, do keep in mind good neighbourly relations here. It transpires now that you believe those flat owners are going to sell - in a previous post you put it as a fact. That's an assumption and I wouldn't bet on it. They may be keeping it as their London bolt hole. Central London has plenty of well heeled absentee owners. So do keep in mind that if you want something that requires permission in future you would want them to give it serious consideration and be approaching it from a co-operative unbiased stance. Not having to fight every bit of the way.

That doesn't mean that you definitely can't say 'no' - that hinges on the contents of the lease and any other relevant documents. And that might be solved very easily - either the scaffolding can go on the front or, if that's not possible, you can ask them, under advisement from the solicitor, what agreement can be reached to reasonably compensate for loss of use of your private garden whilst the work is going on. First option is clearly your preference so check out if that's possible. Even if you're not allowed to refuse consent you can still ask them anyway.

Having said all that sometimes it's down to interpretation of what's in the lease - as I'm sure your solicitor will mention. If this is the case, and it's not so clear cut, then do avoid going down the litigation route or doing anything that might invite the other flat owners to take that route - unless you've got very deep pockets!!
Essentially, avoid any course of action that could backfire badly on you any time in the future - like neighbours deciding to hold wild noisy parties if this matter isn't handled with the necessary degree of courtesy and diplomacy.