Landlord withholding my deposit - Not scheme protected

ManchegoMan

Hi, just wondering if anyone can offer some advice for me regarding withholding a deposit.

We have been contesting/disputing the reasons for our ex landlord taking some of our deposit by writing letters, etc. He keeps replying with an offer of 'Without Prejudice' of which we do not want to accept.

A brief history...We took a rental property (via a letting agent), but the property was managed by the landlord. The inventory was signed by me and the agent when they handed me the keys. The inventory stated that everything was in 'Good' condition. We believed it was even though we noticed later that there was a patched repair to one of the walls - it was done neatly and painted over and wasn't anything for concern (we've had worse before now). After 3 months of a standard shorthold tenancy agreement he gave us notice stating personal problems and that he will have to move in. He asked us to move out early if possible, but also said we were within our rights to stay the 6 month term. Well, we did him a favour and moved out after 5 months to somewhere less convenient. After we moved out we left the keys at the house for him to collect. We got a email a week later from him stating that he wasn't happy with the condition of the house (we cleaned it from top to toe). He is holding on to £1000 of our original £1430 deposit claiming we have damaged his walls. What he is referring to is where there are a couple of holes which have been polyfilled and painted over (in near matching colour). Now, this was there from when we took over the property. He sent us a copy of the estimate at 800 quid to repair properly. He is also claiming other stuff like professional carpet cleaning at 200 quid, plus lawn moving at 40 quid. This basically adds up to the 1000 quid he is withholding. It states that the agent is on his side.

We disagree with everything - the carpets were cleaned with a proper cleaning machine (loaned to us from a mate of mine). Also, he got his mate (who's a carpet installer) to measure up the house when we were in our last week there. Even with this knowledge we still cleaned the carpets.

The lawn had not grown more than 1/2 inch from November to March (our tenancy period was in the winter months), and when we left I checked and the lawn was sodden wet. I have my own petrol mower so it wasnt like I couldn't be bothered.

We were never invited to a checkout by either the agent or the landlord. The landlord has provided us with only one estimate. We have never been given a copy of the checkout report. Even though we moved out early he never gave us a chance to come round and inspect the property with him. We now know that he is living there.

He is now threatening to damage our names by informing the referencing agencies about our behaviour. He states that he made a mistake in providing a good reference for us. Surely, we have the right to contest any landlord who is withholding our deposit? We are now in a situation of having to accept a 'without prejudice' sum of 270 quid or pay the court admin fee (approx 80 quid) and lose everything if a decision goes against us.
What does 'without prejudice' actually mean for us? We are at the point now of sending him our final demand
letter notifying him of the intention to file for court (SCC).

Is there anything we should do in writing before filing for court? We are concerned in case we should do something else before filing for court. We havent yet contacted the agent - should we request the inventory checkout report? Should we request to see the supposed damage for ourselves?

We are just not sure if the barrister will believe us as its his word against ours. The landlord was always slow on the uptake of anything we requested. He didn't give us the key to the up and over garage until at least 2 months into the tenancy. We couldn't unlock the back door (missing key) to move our stuff in on moving in day either.

Any advice greatfully received.

Thanks!

ajaxgeezer

Hi ManchegoMan, I see you are new here... welcome. I cant put much in myself to help, but do hang around and checking the thread. There have been similar stories like this on here before and a lot of people have been aided, although it would be unfair of me to try and remember suggestions as I'd be half guessing and don't want to do that. It sounds like you have a fair amount on your side. What I will say is, in the meantime, keep everything you can like rent books etc, do not hand anything back. You may have him on breaches that will mean he won't really want to go to court against you.

bristol_pilot

Seems like he may be in financial difficulties and wants to hang on to some of the deposit just because he can. There is no way he can charge for lawn mowing and he can only charge for professional carpet cleaning if that is specifically included in the rental agreement and even then the cleaning actually has to take place and he could only charge you the actual cost.

You should file with the court straight away under the small claims procedure.

If he makes an untrue and defamatory written statement about you to a third party (e.g. another letting agency) get a solicitor to write to him saying he must withdraw it or you will bring an action for libel.

The recent law on deposit protection was brought in for landlords just like this.

Welshdan

Have you tried consumer direct? http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/ they will talk you through the small claims process and advise you of all the correct steps to take before issueing a small claims procedure. I used them when issuing a small claims procedure against a mechanic, the advice they gave was so good that he paid up without it ever needing to go to court. The number is 08454 04 05 06.

Guy_Montag

try these guys too:

http://www.clsdirect.org.uk/index.jsp

clutton_2

read Eager Learners mammoth thread on here about getting her deposit back thru the small claims court. £800 !!!!!! for a bit of plastering ???? you could get almost the whole house done for that !!!


"Without prejudice" means that you are unable to show these documents to the court.

olly300

clutton wrote: »

"Without prejudice" means that you are unable to show these documents to the court.

This is not strictly true.

If a "without prejudice" letter is not an attempt at mediation and has a clear threat then you can show it in court. How the judge takes it depends on your background i.e. whether you have legal knowledge or not, whether you have legal representation and whether it is a clear threat not a solicitor threat. Also if a letter is an attempt at mediation but not entitled "without prejudice" it can damage the other parties stance if they are refusing to mediate.

I forgot to add that if the landlord has sent "without prejudice" letters from the begining then the OP replies to his letters are "without prejudice". This means they can't show them to the court. As the OP will not have legal representation in court, doesn't understand what the term means and has no other way of showing that they tried to mediate with the landlord, then they may as well show them.

However there are simple ways of getting around people who try and hide behind this.

In the case of the OP they should write a letter stating in bullet points all the facts in date order including any "threats" in the landlord's letters, ask for the return of the deposit in 7 days and then state at the end if the deposit is not returned they will take small claims proceedings and the landlord will be liable for costs. The letter should be as short as possible.

olly300

bristol_pilot wrote: »

Seems like he may be in financial difficulties and wants to hang on to some of the deposit just because he can. There is no way he can charge for lawn mowing and he can only charge for professional carpet cleaning if that is specifically included in the rental agreement and even then the cleaning actually has to take place and he could only charge you the actual cost.

He can charge for anything that puts the property back in the same standard as it was rented in apart from reasonable wear and tear.

bristol_pilot wrote: »

You should file with the court straight away under the small claims procedure.

You need to give the other party warning in writing of your intent to do that otherwise you could be seen as vexatious.

bristol_pilot wrote: »

If he makes an untrue and defamatory written statement about you to a third party (e.g. another letting agency) get a solicitor to write to him saying he must withdraw it or you will bring an action for libel.

If the OP decides to take the landlord to small claims they should make sure this is recorded in their claim with proof. (Easiest way to create proof is write a letter to the other party asking them if they dispute particular claims and ask them to reply in 7 days if they do. Most people either don't reply or don't dispute the particular claim. )

bristol_pilot wrote: »

The recent law on deposit protection was brought in for landlords just like this.

Agree.

bristol_pilot

My point was that the landlord can ONLY charge for anything that puts the property back in the same standard as it was rented in (apart from reasonable wear and tear).

It is a very common scam for the landlord to attempt to charge for "professional cleaning" of carpets that is neither necessary nor takes place because the tenant has already cleaned the carpet to its original state. Also, the tenant is only obliged to put the property back in the same standard as it was rented in (apart from reasonable wear and tear) - the tenant cannot be obliged to do this in a particular way - for example by employing professional cleaners - unless this is specified in the lease. If the tenant or his mate clean it to the required standard themselves, the tenant has fulfilled his obligations.

The point about lawn mowing is an interesting one. If the tenant HAD mown the lawn when it was wet (and thereby damaged it), the landlord could possibly have had a case for charging something for the repair. By not doing this, the tenant has acted correctly in looking after the landlord's property. I think any claim on the deposit for letting grass grow a bit until the weather improves will be laughed out of court.

You DO have to give notice before taking court action. I thought the OP had done this, but on re-reading the original post more carefully I see that he has not. Apologies. But just give him 7 days or whatever then file if you hear nothing, don't get involved in protracted delaying tactics and extended correspondence.

snowmaid

This is very interesting. We have given notice and are due to vacate the end of this month. The LL has said they will be round with the inventory. They have sold the house......I wonder what exactly they are going to try claim to put back to the 'original state' when the house is sold......:rolleyes:

If they do try anything on, anything they say has to be repaired I will personally repair and they will still give me back my deposit. I have a feeling they will try and withhold part of deposit for things they have no intention of fixing as the house is already sold!!

ManchegoMan

Many, many thanks for the replies. I have kept all correspondence copies from both parties, but as stated earlier he replied in all his letters (post tenancy) with the 'without prejudice' statement. All his letters do offer some sort of compromise (although clearly in his favour). The first offer was a choice: Pay the 800 quid redecoration quote and call it quits, or get our own quote and come to an agreement about the remaining issues (approx another 300 quid). The problem with this is that if we agree with either offer then it shows that we accept the damage claim against us.

After writing to him the first time, he sent us a cheque for 430 quid. This meant that 1000 quid remained outstanding. We sent another letter to him asking for another £750 (we conceeded the carpet cleaning bill of £200 as a gesture, plus a cracked window handle replacement of £50 which we offered in the 1st letter anyway). He sent us another letter offering a 'without prejudice' amount of £285 as a 'last ditch attempt' in his words. If we accept it means we will have recovered half our original deposit of £1430 (£715). He has given us just over two weeks to agree something, else he wants our legal reps details so he can file documents.

He claims that he has a mate and the letting agent on his side who are willing to back him up in the case of any court action. This worries us as that would be 3 of them against 1 of us. The only thing I can think of to help us out is our ex landlady (who we are good friends with) who may be able to write a statement of our excellent behaviour as previous tenants.

The other strange thing is that the ex landlord keeps missing points in our original letter and states that we keep overlooking his points. Its like he hasn't read our letters properly. I would cut and paste extracts from both parties letters on here, but not wanting to bore you all:rotfl: with the details.

Another thing he is going on about is that we failed to report a leaking shower and that the celing was dripping and the carpet has soiled (although he is not claiming damages for this as its covered by insurance). Well, this is absolutely absurd because we reported everything else that was wrong with the property and if there was a leak we would definitely have reported that! We just can't believe the stuff that has gone on between the time we left and the time he carried out an inspection (approx 12 days by the time he notified us of the issues).

Another issue he is moaning about is a 'noisy' extractor fan. I am assuming that he means the main bathroom extractor fan. We only used the en-suite so were unaware of this problem. Is it our responsibility to check the property on a regular basis for faulty equipment? If so, I will have to apologise to him for our lack of professional conduct in that instance.

Sorry for all this waffle, I am still incensed after nearly 4 months of this. My blood boils just thinking about it. We are on the verge of just forgetting the whole thing and learning from our experience. The other side of me really wants to go to court to make this guy realise that I'm no fool. My wife's pregnant so it will stress her out too much and I've got to think of her most of all.

Anyway, thanks once again. Yes I'm new here, but have been reading without registering for a while now. And I have read the 'Eager Learner' thread (well 3/4 of it!). Good for her - that took some doing!

If anyone can help with more guidance I am going to continue to read these boards every day so thumbs up to all of you who contribute - its a 'godsend'.