Potential problem co-owning with brother

fabforty

pollyanna24 wrote: »

Not sure what I meant when I said what would I get out of it, but surely she can't expect to live somewhere for free while making money out of her own flat?

I'm not put out by it as such, I have been very easygoing with her staying over at our place and such like and to be honest, if roles were reversed, I don't think my brother would have been too happy if I had introduced a man into the house. But everything is fine and she is a lovely girl.

He has had to "put up with" me and my children, but then we are family and this girl (although they are now engaged) has only been on the scene since he met her last November.

At the moment, bills are split 50:50, but I pay for everything foodwise etc. for my girls and they are not there at the weekends (either at their dads or if it is my weekend, we tend to stay at my parents). I tend to stay away the weekends I don't have girls as my parents live closer to my work, so this gives my brother some extra space as well. I'm not all me me me, haha!

But surely that (the bit in bold) is between your brother and his girlfriend. Presumably any money that is made on her flat will benefit them both - especially if they marry. But if it doesn't (e.g. if two years from now she dumped him, having lived rent free and kept all the money to herself), again that is an issue for him. He is the one who will be subsidising her, not you and if he chooses to do so, that's his choice.


ETA - I don't think you are all 'me me me', sorry if I gave that impression. I just think you are seeing an issue where there isn't one.

FBaby

but surely she can't expect to live somewhere for free while making money out of her own flat?

But it's not about her any longer but about 'them' now. They are in a committed relationship, so nothing wrong in your brother agreeing to to charge her for her share if it means her saving for both of them. I agree that you could argue that his share of the bills should be more if it was only the three of you, but it isn't.

Is your income likely to increase within the next 2-5 years? Could your brother afford to buy you out and then rent the house to you? You could then buy a flat and rent it out, so you can afford the full rent of the house whist the equity of the flat goes up until you can sell the flat and buy something bigger?

pollyanna24

FBaby wrote: »

But it's not about her any longer but about 'them' now. They are in a committed relationship, so nothing wrong in your brother agreeing to to charge her for her share if it means her saving for both of them. I agree that you could argue that his share of the bills should be more if it was only the three of you, but it isn't.

Is your income likely to increase within the next 2-5 years? Could your brother afford to buy you out and then rent the house to you? You could then buy a flat and rent it out, so you can afford the full rent of the house whist the equity of the flat goes up until you can sell the flat and buy something bigger?

Ooh, this is something I hadn't even considered, but definitely something to thing about.

My income is likely to go up, but not by much. I only work three days a week at present and once my children are in full time school, might think about four days.

I will be affected by his fianc! though. As it is an extra person in the house and we all have to try and get along I guess. When my brother moved in, he did it knowing that I had his nieces there too and so made the choice to move in regardless.

CH27

Have you posted about this before? It's very familiar.

barbiedoll

I've been in a similar situation and I don't envy you one bit!

It is very difficult, having two women in a house, especially with only one kitchen. It's a pain having some other woman leaving her toiletries all around the bathroom, and if she is more/less fussy than you about housework, you may find yourself biting your tongue a few times!

Your brother sounds lovely and I doubt that he will leave you homeless but do be aware of the influence of the fiance, she sounds quite money-savvy too. You say that your brother paid £20,000 to "buy into" the house, and he pays half of the mortgage (as well as the overpayments), which doesn't necessarily mean that he owns half of the property surely? He has been paying half of the mortgage from 2011, and he put the money in to buy your ex out, but how much was your house worth in 2011?

For instance, as I see it, your brother will be entitled to his £20,000 back, plus 50% of any equity gained between 2011 (when he took the mortgage over with you) and whenever you sell..is this how you have worked it out?

(Can anyone else see what I mean? I'm getting in a right muddle!)

FatVonD

pollyanna24 wrote: »

So I think I will discuss it with my brother and will see if I can maybe buy a 2 bed flat nearby which I might be able to do with my £87,000 and a mortgage.

Have you considered swapping your half of the house for the girlfriend's flat?

pollyanna24

FatVonD wrote: »

Have you considered swapping your half of the house for the girlfriend's flat?

She has a flat in a very affluent part of south London whereas we live in the 'burbs' of herts. As lovely as London is, even if I could afford to live there, it's not really for me. I imagine her flat is worth twice the price of my house.

As to my bro owning half the hse, he paid half of the equity that was in the hse at the time of him buying in and had matched me pound for pound ever since, so to me, that means we are joint owners and own exactly the same if we sell up. Even if somehow that's wrong, that's what we've agrees and we are both on the deeds as joint tenants, so I'm sure the law would see it that way as well.

TBagpuss

pollyanna24 wrote: »

She has a flat in a very affluent part of south London whereas we live in the 'burbs' of herts. As lovely as London is, even if I could afford to live there, it's not really for me. I imagine her flat is worth twice the price of my house.

As to my bro owning half the hse, he paid half of the equity that was in the hse at the time of him buying in and had matched me pound for pound ever since, so to me, that means we are joint owners and own exactly the same if we sell up. Even if somehow that's wrong, that's what we've agrees and we are both on the deeds as joint tenants, so I'm sure the law would see it that way as well.

Yes, at the time he bought in, he paid a figure of half the equity, so he bought 50% of the asset as it then was. He's been on the mortgage and paying since then so you are each entitled to 50%.

Obviously when/if he and his fiance want to buy somewhere together, you and your brother will need to sell if you can't buy your brother out at that time, but in the mean time it would be sensible for the two of you, and his fiance, to sit down to discuss how things will work while you are all living together -
e.g. - whether the split in the bills will change at all - one option might be to agree to review the bills after 3 months, and for her and your brother to pay a larger share if any of the bills have increased. If you are on metered water, for instance, another adult may make a difference; similarly if you start cooking separately you could see you gas/electricity bill go up.
- discuss expectations about how you'll split tasks such as housework
-consider having an arrangements about how you'll deal with any issues which may arise

theoretica

There is an alternative of finding someone else to buy your brother out. Are your parents perhaps in the position to become a non-resident part owner? If you took on the mortgage in full and increased it as much as you could afford to pay off some of the equity could someone else buy out the rest?

Savvy_Sue

pollyanna24 wrote: »

When/if they decide to move out, I was going to suggest that we draw up a Trust Deed stating how much percentage my brother owns of my house and I take over paying the whole mortgage payment and my brother staying on the deeds.

Is this the best way to deal with it? What advantages/disadvantages are there to this?

That sounds like a very good idea, and I'm surprised you weren't recommended to do this when your brother moved in.

With a third person on the scene, I'd say it was in his interests as much as yours to have such a deed drawn up. And I'd expect a solicitor to recommend that you each get separate legal advice (ie from different companies), because what is in his interests is not necessarily in his.

(BTW, for years we shared our house with a non-related chap who actually owned most of the house. Early on, before we even bought it, someone asked if we'd thought about what would happen if said chap got a girlfriend / got engaged. I said yes, I'd thought about it: chap would not be forming a relationship with anyone who wasn't as unconventional as he was, so it wouldn't be an issue, she'd either just move in or we'd find some other way of making it work. The chap laughed, he thought I was right! He never has found that girlfriend though.)