FIFTEEN HUNDRED QUID A MONTH FOR TUITION (think about it)

Gloomendoom

Errrrr... I've been lucky enough to travel around a bit and I can tell you that that paying for your own education is not unique to England.

[Deleted User]

I've been on a 5 day training course that cost £1,750 (one of these - http://www.intersystems.co.uk/support-education/uk-ensemble-classroom-courses/)

It's better to look at it as a really unfair graduate tax - if you talk to Americans, you'll find out that £9k a year (and with a really cheap loan) is quite a decent deal.

TurnUpForTheBooks_2

Gloomendoom wrote: »

Errrrr... I've been lucky enough to travel around a bit and I can tell you that that paying for your own education is not unique to England.

And what else do you travels and home observations tell you about the history and background to these varying international arrangements ? Or in our case the government backed discrimination, rip-off interest rates and cronyism that has been deliberately designed to create and then shift enormous debt on to England's young people before they even have their first proper job?

Are you really saying we are no worse than the rest? Britain has previously occupied a rather better position in your comparative tables I think !

And when debt of that enormity is created out of thin air, do you ever ask yourself why? Do you simply stop at "The UK is broke, education is a luxury, let them who want it take it or leave it." ?

Where is the UK common ground between that simplistic mantra heard all over England amongst the muttering classes, and Alex Salmond's promise to Scotland: "The rocks will melt with the sun before I allow tuition fees to be imposed on Scottish students - upfront or backdoor."

There is none is there? Which is the most stupid ? Which is the most committal? Which is the most honorable ? Which is the best way to guarantee a strong future ?

And America is where we are of course headed after once having very responsible government policy on education ... you can't surely hold it up as an example of the norm? It is an example of a world gone mad. Student debt in the US exceeds credit card debt !

We followed America blindly into credit card wallets as long as your arm, and now that's a busted flush, it's student debt next.

Meantime we adjust enormous debt and crippling interest rates about to loom upon us by devices like "Let those who are almost at the end of their mortgages but haven't the means to pay them off, but oh yes look, the same people are almost at the beginning of their pensions, so let take their pension funds to pay off their mortgages!"

And the other one gaining ground right now, "no-recourse mortgages / hand your keys back and walk out of jail free" (like America had that caused their property slump and triggered the worldwide 2008 crisis).

Who do you think gains from all of this jiggery pokery ?

Herbalus

TurnUpForTheBooks wrote: »

Who do you think gains from all of this jiggery pokery ?

I do. I'm one of those unfortunate graduates you mention with a job in Pret after having a 3 years of fun and little responsibility at the tax payers expense because I'll never earn enough to pay back my £27,000+

My friend does. He takes advantage of his education, enjoys the travel opportunities, and is a talented, educated young man with great prospects. He will repay his loans because of his well-paid job in the city.










This isn't actually true, but I thought it would irritate you. :rotfl:

TurnUpForTheBooks_2

Are you not also a talented educated young person then, Herbalus ?

You surely did not realise that your stint at university would plant you at Pret and leave you telling us that you don't think your wages will ever exceed the threshold ? That was never your cunning plan, surely? Your MSE name shows imagination, possibly assisted by some catalyst at the time you chose it - we do not know , but you still live your dreams and to fund some of those you may decide that stepping into some new field and breaking that threshold is likely to happen to you too, even if you don't take the ruthless uncaring route to riches by working for City paymasters?

One presumes that as you have already graduated then your student loan balance may be almost half an order of magnitude lower than we can predict for some recent starters? Do you recommend Pret as one option or stage for them to consider as part of their grand plans ? I am not knocking your choice, but I am trying to understand why you think it illustrates a valid example of how a current undergraduate may be planning their long term financial future ... unless you mean that the loan scheme takes off the pressure whilst you make up your mind what you really want to do

Herbalus

TurnUpForTheBooks wrote: »

Are you not also a talented educated young person then, Herbalus ?

You surely did not realise that your stint at university would plant you at Pret and leave you telling us that you don't think your wages will ever exceed the threshold ? That was never your cunning plan, surely? Your MSE name shows imagination, possibly assisted by some catalyst at the time you chose it - we do not know , but you still live your dreams and to fund some of those you may decide that stepping into some new field and breaking that threshold is likely to happen to you too, even if you don't take the ruthless uncaring route to riches by working for City paymasters?

One presumes that as you have already graduated then your student loan balance may be almost half an order of magnitude lower than we can predict for some recent starters? Do you recommend Pret as one option or stage for them to consider as part of their grand plans ? I am not knocking your choice, but I am trying to understand why you think it illustrates a valid example of how a current undergraduate may be planning their long term financial future... unless you mean that the loan scheme takes off the pressure whilst you make up your mind what you really want to do

My post was entirely tongue-in-cheek. I don't work for Pret. I'm not even sure there is one in my town (funnily enough I had a conversation yesterday about how they all seem to be in the south east). But those are just two examples where the title "£1500 PER MONTH!!!" doesn't tell the full story.

My real life status is a language graduate who finished exams just last week, so currently unemployed, and had the good fortune to live and work in Spain for part of a fantastic degree. Reasons for my degree can be surmised as follows:

For 76% of companies, sales turnover increased by a minimum of 16% as a direct result of having a ‘language management strategy’ (PIMLICO Project, European Commission survey of best practice in European SMEs, 2011)

"The last twenty years have seen a rapid decline in language learning in the UK, and it’s a problem. It is inhibiting our businesses, our national prosperity and even our international standing." Roland Rudd, New Business for Europe.

61% of non-exporters said they considered a lack of language skills a barrier to trading internationally (British Chambers of Commerce, International Trade Business Survey 2012)

I think that is excellent value, even at £9000 per year which is only paid back if my education lands me a decent job. University isn't for everybody, but the "cost" shouldn't put people off those who want to go.

TurnUpForTheBooks_2

Well Herbalus, when I took my final exam before graduation on a Friday, on the Monday I started work with the employer I stayed with for the next 10 years, having been given three unconditional offers to choose from well before I graduated arising out of "Milk Round" interviews. Do universities still have those?

Those kind of opportunities were commonplace at one time. Now graduates as you imply are routinely unemployed and does it even matter if they never earn enough to start paying what they owe? Of course it matters. Think of the damage to your self esteem in the long term if you never break through that threshold on simple merit, never mind personal design. I'm not saying it'll be your fault if that happens. I am saying that a country that puts its young people in such a position and does nothing to ensure that the majority go on immediately to start earning good money in meaningful careers suited to their higher education, is most definitely a failed country.

My university tuition was free and I lived off of the Local Authority maintenance grant which was enough.

My degree was a STEM subject, but I already spoke an extra language before I became an undergraduate student - I learned that for free at school. I studied two other languages for free at school too, but one of those wasn't modern and the other I never enjoyed very much but it helped me navigate round the bars and restaurants of few more ski resorts than Latin ever did, and after the wall came down it also meant I could travel more comfortably to discover a country that was finding itself again. Language isn't just for business of course.

I am now learning another new language at the expense of the taxpayers of another country who as a country do a lot of business in English but also they like their own language to be learned well because it is an excellent path to understanding their culture and psyche.

Now then, about that £9,000. Why haven't I needed to spend any such amount so far? And why didn't you either ? Think about it.

If you did, you would realise that that "cost", which you conclude shouldn't put people off, now actually involves committing your name to some whacking great open ended debt the size of which you have not committed to yourself. So please don't write yet again as if you been there and done it, because you haven't.

In any event that debt you are recommending is openly being lined up to be sold down the river for pennies in the pound to goodness knows who and they don't know you or care about you. They are like ants milking aphids. I suggest you should think about that too before blindly recommending others to sign blank cheques on the best years of their lives like that.

p00hsticks

TurnUpForTheBooks wrote: »

Well Herbalus, when I took my final exam before graduation on a Friday, on the Monday I started work with the employer I stayed with for the next 10 years, having been given three unconditional offers to choose from well before I graduated arising out of "Milk Round" interviews. Do universities still have those?

Those kind of opportunities were commonplace at one time. Now graduates as you imply are routinely unemployed and does it even matter if they never earn enough to start paying what they owe? Of course it matters. Think of the damage to your self esteem in the long term if you never break through that threshold on simple merit, never mind personal design. I'm not saying it'll be your fault if that happens. I am saying that a country that puts its young people in such a position and does nothing to ensure that the majority go on immediately to start earning good money in meaningful careers suited to their higher education, is most definitely a failed country.

My university tuition was free and I lived off of the Local Authority maintenance grant which was enough.

And what percentage of young people went to university in 'your day' ? Considerably less than now, I'll wager.

Surely it's basic economics that the state can afford to pay to put a small number of people through higher education, but if you choose to spread that budget much more thinly by throwing open those doors to a far wider number of people then you can only balance the books finiancially if you ask individuals to contribute far more.

Personally, I'm not really sure when and how the decision to make that basic change in strategy came about, but I'm not convinced it was the right way to go - in my view, it's just another ruse by politiciams to keep young people off the unemployment register for three more years.

yertiz_2

Just read the OP thread. I have 3 children.

1. Finished Uni 2012 (3 years) - 2:1 degree, debt outstanding for Tuition fees and Maintenance loan £25,000 (paying off). We paid £10,000 towards rent. (Now has graduate job)

2. Just finished Uni (3years)- awaiting result! debt outstanding for Tuition fees and Maintenance Loan £30,000. We paid £10,000 towards rent.
Both paying interest at 1.50%

3. Just finished 1st year Uni - so far debt outstanding £15,000 Tuition fees and Maintenance Loan plus 6.3% interest for the next 3 years, then once finished will reduce to RPI currently 3%.

Generation rent comes to mind... shafted x 3

Indie_Kid

yertiz wrote: »

Just read the OP thread. I have 3 children.

1. Finished Uni 2012 (3 years) - 2:1 degree, debt outstanding for Tuition fees and Maintenance loan £25,000 (paying off). We paid £10,000 towards rent. (Now has graduate job)

2. Just finished Uni (3years)- awaiting result! debt outstanding for Tuition fees and Maintenance Loan £30,000. We paid £10,000 towards rent.
Both paying interest at 1.50%

3. Just finished 1st year Uni - so far debt outstanding £15,000 Tuition fees and Maintenance Loan plus 6.3% interest for the next 3 years, then once finished will reduce to RPI currently 3%.

Generation rent comes to mind... shafted x 3

1 and 2 were actually getting a good deal, considering that they only paid just over £3k for their tuition. I'm sure I read that back then, it did cost £9k or something. And it was the cheapest loan they could get.