Contesting a penalty train fare

VodkaSorbet

Hi,

I recently had to pay a penalty fare as I couldn't find the return portion of my ticket whilst on the train (I had the outbound part proving it was a day return price paid, but the actual return portion had fallen down inside the lining of my bag and I only found it later at home as there was only about 5 minutes left on the train journey at that point).

The inspector said I could contest the penalty and showed me the address to send my appeal off to. So I sent off my tickets with an explanatory letter and received a reply that I had no grounds to contest the fare as their rules state you must be able to present your ticket to the inspector when asked, otherwise you have to pay a penalty.

Whilst this is a fair enough rule, it got me wondering how anyone could ever contest a penalty, if this will always be their response, and if so, why are they offering people the option of wasting their time and postage writing in to appeal? Or have I just been fobbed off...?

Any thoughts appreciated!

silverwhistle

Well, until someone comes along who knows what they are talking about I'll babble.. :-)

You were travelling in possession of a ticket, but couldn't produce it within a certain time limit on the train. How long do the companies think is reasonable to produce a ticket: what if you were just about to step off the train?

If they'd stopped the train or the inspector had got off at your stop you'd have been able to produce the ticket, (or even if you'd travelled further and then back again!) but in fact _their_ employee suggested the action that you took.

I'd make it clear that you were fighting this and maybe the above questions might help.

aleph_0

VodkaSorbet wrote: »

Whilst this is a fair enough rule, it got me wondering how anyone could ever contest a penalty, if this will always be their response, and if so, why are they offering people the option of wasting their time and postage writing in to appeal? Or have I just been fobbed off...?

I would say the appeal system is designed for scenarios where the penalty fare shouldn't have been issued in the first place. But I agree, the fact that an inspector can say "you can appeal in writing", rather than get into an argument there and then when the inspector knows the appeal is likely to be unsuccessful, is another feature of the system.

A penalty fare shouldn't be issued in some circumstances when a change of route/change of ticket type excess should be used instead. Or, if the customer did have and show a valid ticket, but the inspector mistakingly thought it was invalid. Similarly, occasionally quirks of the oyster system can mean a passenger can be incorrectly charged, and might end up with a penalty fare. In these scenarios, an appeal should be successful.

In the case of your appeal, the important thing is being able to show the ticket at the time. There's no proof that the ticket you sent them wasn't being used by someone else when you had the Penalty Fare. It's quite strict, although there's a risk of it being taken advantage of by less honest people if it wasn't.

VodkaSorbet

Thanks for your replies.

I didn't realise there were circumstances where they could use an excess or change of ticket whilst on the train, I thought they always issued the penalty fare, so that makes more sense.

Wonder how you would find that out though...!

Stigy

The very nature of an appeal is that the appeals body will allow your appeal if they believe the Penalty Fare shouldn't have been issued in the first place (For example, if there were no ticket issuing facilities available at the origin station).

Sometimes you will win an appeal by the appeals body giving 'benefit of the doubt' if it's dubious circumstances that are quite possibly true, and would otherwise deem the notice invalid, but are hard to prove.

As Aleph has said, in your case, the ticket COULD have been being used by a friend or colleague etc, which is why these rules exist. The Penalty Fare is a means of deterrent really, and if the RPI thought that you intended to avoid payment, he or she would...or arguable should, have cut out the middle man and reported you for possible prosecution in the Magistrates' Court.

VodkaSorbet

Stigy wrote: »

if the RPI thought that you intended to avoid payment, he or she would...or arguable should, have cut out the middle man and reported you for possible prosecution in the Magistrates' Court.

I suppose the presentation of my receipt and outbound day-return ticket convinced them it was simply an error rather than a deliberate attempt at non-payment.

I'm not planning to pursue it further as it was clearly my error, I was just interested in how an appeal might ever work.

Energize

I can't understand why you paid the penalty fare when you had bought a ticket, regardless of what their policy is. It would never go anywhere in a court because no actual crime had been committed.

wealdroam

Energize wrote: »

I can't understand why you paid the penalty fare when you had bought a ticket, regardless of what their policy is. It would never go anywhere in a court because no actual crime had been committed.

You appear to have overlooked a couple of things.

Firstly, one can be summoned to court for other offences than crimes.
Think civil offences... like breach of contract.

Secondly, it is an offence under the National Rail Conditions of Carriage where it says:

22. Inspection of tickets
You must show and, if asked to do so by the staff of a Train Company or its agent, hand over for inspection a valid ticket and any relevant Railcard, photocard or other form of personal identification in accordance with Condition 15

The NRCoC form part of the contract the traveller agrees to when purchasing a ticket, thus failure to adhere to them is a breach of contract.

Energize

Companies can put whatever they like in their terms and conditions, but the law supersedes these. County courts award compensation where a loss has occurred, if someone bought a ticket the company has no loss and the case is dismissed. You can't sue for breach of contract in itself.

wealdroam

Energize wrote: »

Companies can put whatever they like in their terms and conditions, but the law supersedes these. County courts award compensation where a loss has occurred, if someone bought a ticket the company has no loss and the case is dismissed. You can't sue for breach of contract in itself.

I agree with that, but what is your knowledge on Railway Byelaws like?

In particular, number 18, which states:

18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas
(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.
(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person.
(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:
(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey; or
(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

For some reason lost in history, the railway companies have special privileges to protect their revenue over and above that which other commercial enterprises enjoy.

Magistrates courts deal with these byelaw offences.

Energize

Why mention civil courts and breach of contract if you are referring to byelaws? They are two completely separate areas of law.

The person in question had a valid ticket with him.

My standard practice is to give false identification information to those requesting it for such victimless crimes.

Ethics > Law.