Term time holiday court fine help please?

stevemLS

OP - are you being prosecuted for not paying fine or for not ensuring children attend school? Latter can and does attract short prison sentences.

You knew you shouldn't be doing what you did and said effectively sod it. You are culpable.

katejo

I thought that the law had changed so that schools were no longer allowed to use their discretion in exceptional circumstances and were obliged to refuse holiday in term time. However a colleague told me that her grandchildren were being taken abroad during school time. I queried how she had got permission. Apparently the school did allow it if the parents let it know in advance.
As a child i never went away during term as my parents were teachers. Perhaps holidays should be staggered right across the summer from early June to early september. That is how it is done in German Laender.

Buffythedebtslayer

kitty08 wrote: »

It's the hypocrisy of the schools that gets me. According to the schools, it's damaging to a child's education if they miss school for a holiday, but having to miss school because the teachers are on strike doesn't have any effect on a child's education? Personally I think the parents who have been obliged to take a day off work to look after their children on strike days should be able to bill the schools, especially those parents who are self employed.. Another thing, the time each day that is wasted especially by primary schools could do with looking at. I cannot think what possible use sitting cross legged on the floor can possibly be in later life (unless training as a yoga teacher, or to sit begging outside the high street shops?)
I think holidays are an important time for busy families to just spend time together (I'm not saying it's necessary to spend loads of money on a holiday,it isn't, in fact some of the best holidays I had as a child were very cheap camping or caravan holidays). The very best holiday I had as a child was the summer of 1976. We rented a cheap caravan and every day of the holiday was spent at the beach. The only extra expense for my parents was a daily ice cream, but it's left me with magical memories of a golden time - paddling, swimming in the sea, building sandcastles (and knocking them down again).
BTW, one of the skiing companies (sorry, can't remember which one, but it might be worth considering for next year ) was offering to pay any fine if the holiday was taken in school time
I think common sense needs to be applied here. A full, rounded education is important, and it covers far more than just attending school. Obviously it's irresponsible to pull children out just before important exams, but in the primary years I really can't see it's a problem. Holidays give the chance for children to end up with happy memories that they will carry with them for the rest of their life.

1. The schools don't make these rules so they aren't being hypocritical.


2. Presumably I am to give up my rights to fair treatment at work and never strike so parents can have a 100% reliable babysitter? am I to have no rights to withdraw my labour?


3. Equally why should a school be "billed"? It isn't "their" fault the workers have refused to work, they can't actually force us to come in - well not yet any way!


I don't know any teachers who think children going on holiday during term time is a big deal and that it would have a hugely detrimental effect on their education.


There are bigger problems in education than kids going on holiday. In a secondary school It doesn't kill a teacher to print off a couple of worksheets or give a list of websites with questions to help the kid in question catch up. You are expected to do it for those who are sick, it is part and parcel of the job.


As for Primary well it might be more difficult but then I feel it is down to the parents to ask what is missed and do some work on holiday. It isn't that difficult . And if parents cant be bothered well, holidays are the least of the child's problems.

Gaz83

matttye wrote: »

Schools should be working with parents and kids on this, not against them. Could the pupil not take extra classes to catch up? Why not take some homework to do on holiday? There is inevitably some time spent on holiday in a caravan / hotel / cottage / whatever when homework could be done.

You say it's selfish but the choice for many is a term time holiday or no holiday, because holidays are so expensive during school holidays.

The current law is a shambles.

I spend every minute of my non-contact time at school (and a significant portion of my own free time at home) marking, planning and developing resources. Why should I take up even more time teaching pupils (whose classmates have already been taught the material) because their parents were too selfish to leave their pupils in school?

Gaz83

Buffythedebtslayer wrote: »

I don't know any teachers who think children going on holiday during term time is a big deal and that it would have a hugely detrimental effect on their education.


There are bigger problems in education than kids going on holiday. In a secondary school It doesn't kill a teacher to print off a couple of worksheets or give a list of websites with questions to help the kid in question catch up. You are expected to do it for those who are sick, it is part and parcel of the job.

You don't know me, but I think it is hugely detrimental.

Re: your second point, none but the most advanced children have the skills to 'teach' themselves material from printed worksheets. It's nowhere near as simple as you make out. Otherwise why employ, you know, teachers? Just get folk in who specialise in behaviour management to supervise 33 pupils while they 'teach' themselves?

Children being sick can't be helped, and can't be compared to pupils being taken out of school by selfish parents.

Buffythedebtslayer

Gaz83 wrote: »

You don't know me, but I think it is hugely detrimental.

Re: your second point, none but the most advanced children have the skills to 'teach' themselves material from printed worksheets. It's nowhere near as simple as you make out. Otherwise why employ, you know, teachers? Just get folk in who specialise in behaviour management to supervise 33 pupils while they 'teach' themselves?

Children being sick can't be helped, and can't be compared to pupils being taken out of school by selfish parents.

It would depend entirely on the work being appropriate for the child in question actually - which most teachers do automatically if they are any good. The world isn't perfect, the choice of taking your child on holiday to have family time will logically mean the child will miss two weeks of education, so therefore some effort on the part of the child and family is needed.


As for the sick children I merely meant it was not unusual for teacher to be expected to condense/simplify/adapt work for students who miss school, most have resources like this available. It is not as hard to accommodate as some make out.


I guess you haven't heard of cover supervisors or instructors who do exactly that? not saying it is right from my point of view at all but it is happening.


I think in a world where many parents work full time just to pay the bills and many kids are shoved from club to school to club to activity a holiday is a blessed relief for all.

Gaz83

Buffythedebtslayer wrote: »

It would depend entirely on the work being appropriate for the child in question actually - which most teachers do automatically if they are any good. The world isn't perfect, the choice of taking your child on holiday to have family time will logically mean the child will miss two weeks of education, so therefore some effort on the part of the child and family is needed.

I can only speak from a maths point of view, but if any of my pupils took two weeks off and I gave them worksheets, I'd have low-ability pupils trying to teach themselves how to find a half or quarter of something (which they would lack the skills to do) or higher-ability pupils trying to teach themselves trigonometry or calculus. It's ridiculously unworkable. Plus, the fact that the parents think it's fine for their child to miss two weeks of work suggests that they're not exactly going to force the pupils to make a bit of effort.

Buffythedebtslayer wrote: »

As for the sick children I merely meant it was not unusual for teacher to be expected to condense/simplify/adapt work for students who miss school, most have resources like this available. It is not as hard to accommodate as some make out.

If my pupils have been ill, then I have no problem giving up a lunch or two to help them catch up. If they've missed school because their parents have taken them out, then that's the parents' problem. I also record that information on their parents reports so that the parents have it in black and white what taking their child out of school has meant he or she missed.

Buffythedebtslayer wrote: »

I guess you haven't heard of cover supervisors or instructors who do exactly that? not saying it is right from my point of view at all but it is happening.


I think in a world where many parents work full time just to pay the bills and many kids are shoved from club to school to club to activity a holiday is a blessed relief for all.

A holiday is a luxury. Not a necessity.

Buffythedebtslayer

Gaz83 wrote: »

I can only speak from a maths point of view, but if any of my pupils took two weeks off and I gave them worksheets, I'd have low-ability pupils trying to teach themselves how to find a half or quarter of something (which they would lack the skills to do) or higher-ability pupils trying to teach themselves trigonometry or calculus. It's ridiculously unworkable.

If my pupils have been ill, then I have no problem giving up a lunch or two to help them catch up. If they've missed school because their parents have taken them out, then that's the parents' problem. I also record that information on their parents reports so that the parents have it in black and white what taking their child out of school has meant he or she missed.

I guess I do look at it differently to you. And we will just go round circles!

Gaz83

Buffythedebtslayer wrote: »

I guess I do look at it differently to you. And we will just go round circles!

Yup - we shall agree to disagree in a civilised manner

Idiophreak

matttye wrote: »

Someone will always be grateful for the overtime.

I'm sorry, this has to be the funniest post I've read on these boards in a looooong time!

Why people insist on topics they know *nothing* about is quite beyond me. I know a good many teachers. I could not think of a *single one* that would be "grateful for the overtime"....to think they would be just shows a complete and blissful ignorance of the modern teaching profession.

Anyway, a couple of thoughts:

1) I think it's shameful that so many parents rock up on these threads preaching the importance of holidays for kids' education...it's quite transparent that *they want a holiday* and it's really nothing to do with "family time" or "broadening horizons".

You know what, we're blessed to live in a *beautiful* country. Wherever you are in the UK, you're *never* far from something really amazing to share with your family. We've world-beating museums, art galleries, zoos, wildlife parks, national parks, aquariums, theatres, countryside, beaches...we've cinemas and sports facilities, amazing cities...we've a wealth of great places to eat, waterways to explore...there are stately homes, castles, monuments, libraries, theme parks...we can rockpool, climb, cave, hike, snorkel, kayak...we can fly kites, kick a football, go on picnics...we can watch sport, go bowling, ice skating, running, swimming...

I'm not a particularly enthusiastic person, but we've a world of *fascinating* and *beautiful* stuff that we can do... most of it for free or with very low cost (when compared to holidays, anyway)...and most of it right on our doorsteps...if we bother to look for it. You can absolutely spend *real quality time* with your children and you can *absolutely* broaden their horizons...and you don't need to go anywhere, if you can't afford to.

2) Children learn best with stability and consistency. Removing a child from class for a period of time is disruptive to the class as well as the child.

3) Many hotels and B&Bs work at a loss for much of the year. It's only the holidays that get them into profitability. Do not view term time prices as "realistic"...they're simply unsustainable.