Should sleep ins count as working hours?

Bigbobby

Hi i work 9-5 for a charity supporting vulnerable people with housing issues. Enjoy job but pay not great. I took on a second job initially to clear my overdraft which i have now done and i am now building up an emergency fund.
I enjoy my second job which involves supporting 3 people in a house with learning disabilities. I do evenings and weekends but also do sleep ins. From 10pm-8am i sleep in my own room at the house and get a £32 sleep in allowance. Do the hours i sleep count as working hours? I calculated that if they are then my full time job, working whilst awake in second job plus sleep ins is 80 hours/week! If i told my manager in my full time job she would not be impressed. I am not very tired though because i get enough sleep.
Also does anyone think sleep in allowance is unfair? Ok i am asleep but i am still on the premises in case i have to get up for something - resident becomes ill, fire alarm goes off etc.

elsien

No they don't count as working hours, you are basically being paid for being asleep. The rule is generally that if you are disturbed at night you get paid after you've been up for a specified length of time - in my case if I'm up longer than an hour. If you are regularly being disturbed you need to raise this with your manager if it is impacting on your energy levels the following day. Otherwise it's money for old rope - why would you expect to be paid the full hourly rate when other than being there you're not actually doing anything?
Edit - my sleep in rate is £25, so you've even less to complain about!

Torry_Quine

elsien wrote: »

No they don't count as working hours, you are basically being paid for being asleep. The rule is generally that if you are disturbed at night you get paid after you've been up for a specified length of time - in my case if I'm up longer than an hour. If you are regularly being disturbed you need to raise this with your manager if it is impacting on your energy levels the following day. Otherwise it's money for old rope - why would you expect to be paid the full hourly rate when other than being there you're not actually doing anything?
Edit - my sleep in rate is £25, so you've even less to complain about!

I agree you are being paid to be on the premises should the need arise. Yes £32 is a good rate, my experience of people doing this is never that much.

Bigbobby

Ok we could argue about sleep in allowance rates until the birds come home to roost.
My point is that ok i am asleep but i have to remain on site, is that not classed as work as i am performing a duty?
Its not as if i can nip off site for a late night film, down the pub or late night shopping?

p00hsticks

Bigbobby wrote: »

My point is that ok i am asleep but i have to remain on site, is that not classed as work as i am performing a duty?

No, it won't be classified as work unless and until you actually have to get up and do something - you are effectively 'on call' until then, not actively working.

elsien

Bigbobby wrote: »

My point is that ok i am asleep but i have to remain on site, is that not classed as work as i am performing a duty?
Its not as if i can nip off site for a late night film, down the pub or late night shopping?

Which is what the allowance is for, recompense for being there in case you are needed. It's more of a oncal, but an on call where you have to be on the premises not 20 minutes up the road.

jobbingmusician

Actually I disagree - my understanding is that nowadays (and this is recent) sleepins have to be paid at min wage. See http://archive.unitetheunion.org/pdf/Job%202759%20working%20time%20brief.pdf

elsien

There's a more recent Unison link which I can't post at the moment from Feb 13 which says that sleep in allowances are currently lawful pending a case trudging its way through the European Court.

jobbingmusician

(Perhaps I should state that I would be very happy to be proved wrong - especially as I run a charity which may have the need for sleep ins in the future!)

elsien

Just found this which clarifies things a little more.


"If you are paid more than the NMW for your ‘standard’ hours then this judgement may not be significant, as your employer just needs to pay you at least the NMW for all the hours you work within the relevant pay period."
Full reference
http://www.freelanceadvisor.co.uk/legal-advice/national-minimum-wage-time-workers-entitled-paid-national-minimum-wage-hours-sleep/


So basically if you're on a higher rate of pay for the contracted hours, that can balance out the supposed underpayment for the sleep-in.

Interesting though as otherwise practically every care employer in the country may be acting illegally, and the cost implications for services that are already being cut back are worrying.

elsien

Also this, which is another interpretation.
16. Do we have to pay the minimum wage for the hours when people are 'sleeping over'?



There has been some to-ing and fro-ing over this. Current official guidance says that, if you specify hours when people may sleep in their employment contract, and you provide them with suitable sleeping facilities, then you do not have to pay them for those hours, except insofar as any work is done in them. If you do not specify any sleeping time, however, an Employment Tribunal might require you to pay for the whole of the time that the worker is at work.


The European Commission has obtained agreement that on-call time will be defined much more precisely, to differentiate it from working time and rest time. The proposal is to define 'active' on-call time, which will count as working time, as time which workers are required to spend at your premises, but during which they are not required to perform any duties. However, this change is yet to be implemented through legislation in the UK.




Looks like this one may run and run! My guess would be most organisations will carry on as they are and let individual cases go to tribunal if the employee wants to take it further.