Parking eye nonsense!!!

Markymoo_2

Hello everyone - I am new to this forum so be gentle with me

I have just received an £85 PCN from parking eye and have spent the last couple of days reading MSE information and forum posts to get up to speed with the latest goings on with PPCs. It's the first time I have every received one of these. I'm not worried as I like a challenge and happy to take anyone on who sends me rubbish like this.

I am a man of principle and won't be bullied by these guys with their threats. The car park where I received a PCN I have parked in numerous times and shop their regularly. In all fairness, it was a genuine mistake and the sign wasn't clear on first glance. It was only when I went back and read it again after the notice did I truly understand the conditions - by that time it was too late!

However, I am going to write to tell them I refuse to pay. It was a car park offering free parking for two hours. Admittedly, I stayed 47 minutes longer than I was allowed but that wasn't clear to me from their signage at the time. If you park after 7pm, you can stay all night for free. If you arrive before 7pm (I arrived approx 6:30pm) you are still bound by the 2 hour max stay policy. This is in smaller print on their signage and isn't glaringly obvious. How can I arriving at 6:30pm and leaving just after 9pm be any more of a loss to the company or landowner such that they have to pursue me for losses when someone arriving 30 mins later could park 12 hours for free? On top of that, the car park, as it was early evening, was almost empty. They lost nothing as a result of me being there apart from an hours payment!

Can someone let me know if the below template that is published on the website (for newbies) is suitable in this instance. It seems it is a pretty generic (but powerful) template to follow which I will embellish slightly to add my own handwriting to it! Any other advice welcome of course :-)

Dear {company name of this member of ''PPC World''},

PCN number xxxxxxx
As the registered keeper, I have received your parking invoice which of course, I decline your invitation to pay. I wish to invoke your appeals process, since all liability to your company is denied on the following basis:

1) The amount being claimed is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss to your company or the landowner
2) Your signage does not comply with your ATA Code of Practice and was not sufficiently prominent to create any contract
3) You are not the landowner and do not have the standing to offer contracts nor to bring a claim for trespass

Please issue your standard cancellation letter or a specific, detailed rejection letter. If you choose to send the latter, it must state:

- the legal basis of your charge (i.e. breach, trespass or contractual fee?) as your signage was not seen/accepted by the driver and your recent Notice failed to make the basis of the charge clear. As keeper, I cannot be expected to guess the nature of the allegation.

- if alleging breach of contract, with your rejection letter I require a breakdown of the liquidated damages suffered, and by whom, and when this calculation was determined and how this particular 'loss' arose. Please also explain how/why you charge a fixed sum no matter whether the alleged contravention was trivial or more serious and how that can amount to a genuine pre-estimate of loss.

- if alleging trespass please enclose evidence of the perpetrator and proof of the liquidated damages alleged and the calculation of this sum.

- if alleging 'contractual fee' I require that you now send me a VAT invoice by return and explain the daily rate for parking and service provided for the fee. Failure to provide this information and a VAT invoice now that I have requested it, will be considered evidence that this was not in fact a genuine offer to park for a fee and is merely a penalty which is not recoverable in contract law (as found by Mr Recorder Gibson QC, on appeal at Luton County Court in the case of Civil Enforcement v McCafferty 3YK50188 (AP476) 21/2/2014).

Take formal note:

(a) Your unsupported, unsolicited invoice and any further letters if you persist, will constitute harassment. If you continue, your contact and that of any agent will be deemed a 'serious and persistent unwarranted threat' as found by Lord Justice Sedley in Ferguson v British Gas Trading Ltd [2009] EWCA Civ 46 (10 February 2009) and I reserve the right to take the matter further. You have been informed that I consider this to be harassment so any decision to send further letters rather than cancel the invoice will reinforce the evidence of your persistent unwarranted threat and you may be required to justify your actions in court.

(b) Any obfuscation on your part, such as pretending I have to name the driver, alleging I am too late or unable to appeal as keeper or requiring more evidence when clearly I have already set out my full challenge for this stage, will be reported to the DVLA and to your respective ATA, as a sanctionable breach of your Code of Practice.

(c) If you reject my challenge and insist upon taking the matter further I must inform you that I may claim my costs from you and my time at the court rate of £18 per hour. The expenses I may claim are not exhaustive but may include the cost of stamps, envelopes, travel expenses and legal fees as well as liquidated damages for distress arising from harassment.

By continuing to pursue me you hereby accept liability to pay my costs when I prevail and you acknowledge and imply full understanding of the above.

Yours,


I HOPE SOMEONE CAN HELP!!!

Redx

dont bother with trying to blind them with science

just use the template "as is" and do not tell them who was driving or imply who was driving, its when you start adding stuff you make mistakes

dont get mad - get even

the NEWBIES thread tells you everything you need to know , nothing else needs adding

ColliesCarer

Hi Markymoo,

Yes that template is suitable and doesn't really need anything extra adding.
If you do want to add/change anything make sure it's done in third person and doesn't disclose who the driver was - post it up before sending if you want the forum to check it for you.

Markymoo_2

Thanks Redx and ColliesCarer. That's helpful. I guess I was just a little uncertain on point three in the template about them not being the landowner. Do I know that? As it's a Morrison's supermarket, I assume they are they land owners?

Don't worry, I have done lots of reading so think I'm pretty clear on what to say/not say. But I'll post if I make any additions.

Your help is appreciated.

Folkiedave

Most unlikely that Morrison's are the landowners. More likely to be a pension fund!

Redx

never assume for starters

it can be hard to find out the landowner details unless you go to the land registry and pay, but its rarely the PPC unless its one or two that are known to own car parks , PE not being one of them

doesnt matter if you know or understand the appeal points, you are asking them to prove what they are doing , or back off and cancel

in theory you may find the creditor details on the pcn

appeal , if necessary to popla once you get a code , only go the landowner route or retailer route once you have your appeals sorted

ColliesCarer

Markymoo wrote: »

Thanks Redx and ColliesCarer. That's helpful. I guess I was just a little uncertain on point three in the template about them not being the landowner. Do I know that? As it's a Morrison's supermarket, I assume they are they land owners?

Don't worry, I have done lots of reading so think I'm pretty clear on what to say/not say. But I'll post if I make any additions.

Your help is appreciated.

Morrisons aren't asking you for money - P E are
Morrisons are highly unlikely to see a penny of it - that's the business model P E operate - often providing "Free" car parking "management" and they make all their money from the charges for breaching their parking rules.

So that challenge is about whether P E are the landowners (or have been given sufficient authority by the landowner) not whether Morrison's may be the landowner - and as Redx has pointed out - they are very unlikely to be.

Coupon-mad

PE don't own any car parks. FACT.

PPCs work like parasites on the back of real landowners & businesses, fleecing their customers. FACT.

rdr

If you park after 7pm, you can stay all night for free. If you arrive before 7pm (I arrived approx 6:30pm) you are still bound by the 2 hour max stay policy.

That is so different to normal practice that if it is not crystal clear, readable and in the same size and font as the free parking after 7pm bit, in my opinion it amounts to entrapment.
Worth making a fuss about.

Coupon-mad

rdr wrote: »

If you park after 7pm, you can stay all night for free. If you arrive before 7pm ... you are still bound by the 2 hour max stay policy.

That is so different to normal practice that if it is not crystal clear, readable and in the same size and font as the free parking after 7pm bit, in my opinion it amounts to entrapment.
Worth making a fuss about.

That is a good point - this is the opposite of Council restrictions so it would indeed need to be crystal clear as to these terms. Otherwise a PPC could install traffic lights and pretend that Green means stop and red means Go, and issue tickets over that as well! If they make it up as the go along they have to show the terms in large font and on lots of signs so the driver 'must' have seen & understood the terms.

Even if they had signs at every bay, the OP will still win at POPLA with our help though!