Is this attempted fraud?

Professor_Z

I have had a quick glance at the forum rules and I can't see anything about creating another username for genuine reasons just if you have been banned, so I hope this is OK. I don't want the developer in question knowing I have posted this about them so I have created a new ID.

The part of our story that I need help on is this (I have changed dates and times to hide my identity):

• Reserved a house 31st January 2013 through a house builder. The reservation form provided a few basic details, plot number, house price, our names and address, etc. I signed this form and left the office just after 10:30. A receipt for payment of the deposit shows I made payment at 10:30 and I have proof that I was back at work by 10:50.
  
  
• I and my wife returned to the sales office on the 1st March to ask for another reservation form, the original had my wife's name on it (but she did not sign it as she wasn't present) and the house was to be purchased in just my name. PlumLife (was using Help to Buy) needed to see just my name on the form. I requested a duplicate of the original reservation form but with my wife's name removed and the correct solicitors details to be added. I admit that me nor my wife looked at this document too closely as it was meant to just be the same as the first but with a few details amended. My wife's name had been removed and the solicitors details amended so I signed. This was forwarded straight onto PlumLife.
  
  
• Much later on the whole house sale falls through and due to our belief that there was a lot more to our story that what we knew we did a Subject Access Request (SAR).
  
  
• I received a copy of the form of 1st of March under the SAR. This form, contains an annual management fee of £175 – this was not mentioned when I original reserved on 31st January 2013 at 10:30. Also my home phone number, mobile and first line of my address are wrong.
  
  
• The interesting thing is this, they did not send a copy of the form dated and signed the 31st of January at 10:30. Instead they send a document created at 11:15 (I was back a work at this point). This form contains the annual management fee and has the first line of my address wrong along with the home phone number (although the mobile is correct). It looks like I have signed this, yet I did not. When looking at the form it is obvious that someone (I suspect the sales advisor) took the form signed at 10:30 cut the bottom off and stuck if over the form created at 11:15 and scanned it in or photocopied it like that. You can tell this because the 10:30 and 11:15 forms are in a different format, one appears to be an older style form as it has their old logo on. So the bottom does not match, it should have 6 boxes at the bottom opposed to 4 and is misaligned. Also my signature goes over some text – well is should do if I had signed the 11:15 document, but instead there is an area of white over part of the text. They have had to cut round my signature. It is hard to describe but I hope this makes sense and if you were to see the documents I have it would be glaring obvious when pointed out.

Although the house sale fell through surely what they did is still wrong? Would it be classed as attempted fraud? At the very least haven't they forged a document?

I have evidence that they used the document and a copy was sent to at least their Legal Executive and their solicitor.

I have concerns that maybe they have done this to other people and may do it to other people. I won't go into details as it will give the game away but they have a complete disregards for any civil laws that apply to them. So this is just another example of something the house builder has done wrong.

I appreciate that I did sign a new reservation form with incorrect details on and with the annual fee present but signed it in good faith as it was made clear to the sales advisor that what I wanted was a copy of the original but with a couple of details amended. She did not highlight the management fee. Also if I had not needed another copy the developer would have still been using the faked form.

Is there anyone to complaint to? I have previously tried complaining about the other matters to the NHBC but they did nothing.

Professor Z

dominoman

Certainly if they did that it is wrong, but could it simply be an overzealous sales person that realised the quickest way to create the new form was to copy your signature section across and resend it. Wrong, but no fraud attempted?

In your case you say you are now happy and have not lost money so I wouldn't pursue it further. The best outcome you are likely to achieve is an apology and an assurance that the staff member will be cautioned. Is it worth it?

princeofpounds

It's not fraud as it has not cost you any money.

It may fall foul of data disclosure rules, and other laws perhaps (forgery?). But not fraud.

Professor_Z

Well no we are not happy - long story, can't go into details as it would reveal who we are.

I don't know if it is fraud, my thoughts are but I could be wrong. Is we were not made aware of the annual management fee when we first signed. The second form had the fee on of £175, it may have been quicker but the sales advisor (assuming that's who did it) made it look liked I had agreed to pay this annual fee when I had not.

Professor_Z

@princeofpounds, OK so not fraud/attempted fraud but forgery maybe.

When you say data disclosure rules what do you mean?

ging84

for fraud there generally needs to be some attempt at dishonesty

if it was a simple case of the agent getting you to sign the older form, someone pointing out that they should have used a newer form and for some reason they though the best thing to do was transfer your signature to the new form rather than ask you to sign the new one. Then it doesn't make it fraud. If the terms on the new form were slightly different it still isn't necessarily fraud especially if the changes were relatively trivial, but it would likely void the contract if the alteration was discovered. If there are new terms which they wanted to rely on and deliberately hide from you by using a form which didn't have them then transferring your signature to one which did, then it would be fraud or attempted fraud.

jjlandlord

It does not matter if it cost money to anyone for someone's actions to be fraud.

ging84 wrote: »

for fraud there generally needs to be some attempt at dishonesty

if it was a simple case of the agent getting you to sign the older form, someone pointing out that they should have used a newer form and for some reason they though the best thing to do was transfer your signature to the new form rather than ask you to sign the new one.

You have a strange definition of 'dishonesty'... :rotfl:

Professor_Z

Well if it was the sales person then they have been repeatedly dishonest about other matters. My thoughts are the sales person is generally a dishonest person (I suppose that probably is not a surprise). We live very close to the sales office, no more than a 10 minute car journey - I ask myself why did she not ask me to return to sign the new form? And why when I came in later did she not mention the fee? Was it deliberate or incompetence, maybe forgetfulness?

JimmyTheWig

Was any of this linked to why the purchase didn't go ahead?
What would have happened differently for you if you had been given the right form in the first place or if they called you back to sign the right form?

princeofpounds

It does not matter if it cost money to anyone for someone's actions to be fraud

Actually the phrasing I used was sloppy, but this is what I meant:

Put simply, fraud is an act of deception intended for personal gain or to cause a loss to another party.

There has to be some exploitation of value.

On my first reading (I believe the OP's account is somewhat confusing) I did not believe there had been any attempt to cause the OP a loss. Now I read it again, the involvement of this fee is confusing; if the purpose of changing the document is to charge a fee then there might be something to it. But I can work out if they were expected to pay it or not, it seems not as this was just a data request, the fee was never actually demanded.

browneyedbazzi

princeofpounds wrote: »

Actually the phrasing I used was sloppy, but this is what I meant:



There has to be some exploitation of value.

On my first reading (I believe the OP's account is somewhat confusing) I did not believe there had been any attempt to cause the OP a loss. Now I read it again, the involvement of this fee is confusing; if the purpose of changing the document is to charge a fee then there might be something to it. But I can work out if they were expected to pay it or not, it seems not as this was just a data request, the fee was never actually demanded.

I think you're miss-reading the original post. OP caught wind of this attempted fraud after receiving the document that was provided following a subject access request. The SAR showed up the evidence of a fraud, but wasn't actually part of the fraud.

If the company/individual created the document with the intention to use it to demand payment for the fees then the fraud is complete even if they did not actually demand/receive the money. The action of making a false representation/article etc itself is fraud, and the offences do not require the loss/gain to actually happen. There also appear to be offences under the Forgery and Counterfeiting Act.

OP - do you still have the original form from 10:30 am on the day you signed the original contract? If so, I would suggest you take it along with the documents you received from the SAR to the police.