Clarification Needed re: Forgotten Young Person's Railcard

Adrianics

Hello everyone,

In a nutshell: My partner travelled on a Southern Rail service from London - Brighton yesterday, and has been fined £55 (cost of new ticket + penalty fare) for travelling without her young person's railcard. Despite knowing it's a long-shot, we are planning on appealing the penalty fare.

We do know that it's completely at the discretion of the train company and that the T&Cs are pretty ironclad on this, but my concern is that she wasn't properly informed of her rights w/r/t paying the fine: She was told repeatedly by the two ticket officers present that she had to pay the fine on the spot by debit card, and when she said that she didn't have the money in her account she was told that she'd be 'cautioned' if she continued to refuse to pay, and when pressed for further details on what this meant it wasn't elaborated on. She eventually paid the fine and got details of how to appeal.

So, we hope to appeal based on how often we both use the London - Brighton service, the fact that she's a student with a very low income and the fact that she wasn't properly informed of the procedure or her rights. We will also be sending proof that she does have a valid YPR and that it was a genuine mistake.

Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that in the case of penalty fares, the passenger has the right to request a payment order and is under no obligation to pay the penalty fare on the spot. Would anyone be able to confirm if this is or is not the case?

Thanks!

p00hsticks

Adrianics wrote: »

So, we hope to appeal based on how often we both use the London - Brighton service, the fact that she's a student with a very low income and the fact that she wasn't properly informed of the procedure or her rights. We will also be sending proof that she does have a valid YPR and that it was a genuine mistake.

I don't believe any of these are valid reasons for an appeal

Adrianics wrote: »

Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that in the case of penalty fares, the passenger has the right to request a payment order and is under no obligation to pay the penalty fare on the spot. Would anyone be able to confirm if this is or is not the case?

Thanks!

You might get a better response posting on the public transport board- there are quite a few experts on the bye laws etc frequenting that board

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/forumdisplay.php?f=225

Adrianics

Thank you for your reply, I have posted this in the Public Transport board.

pinkshoes

Their own T&Cs state:

You must carry your Railcard with you on your journey and when asked by rail staff, you must show a valid ticket and valid Railcard. If you fail to do so, you will be required to pay the full price Standard Single fare for your journey as if no ticket was purchased before starting the journey and in some cases a Penalty Fare. This does not apply if there was no ticket office at the station at which you began your journey or if the ticket office was closed and there was no ticket machine from which you could buy a discounted ticket.

They've even put the bit in BOLD about having to have your rail card on you when using the ticket, so I'd say you have no grounds to appeal.

My cousin won an appeal a few years ago, BUT she realised she'd left her railcard, so got someone to scan it for her, and showed them the scanned version, then produced the real one on appeal.

doverswot

I don't have a view on whether they can enforce you pay the penalty fare, however based on my experience it is definitely worth appealing. Last year I inadvertently traveled without my annual season ticket on an Abelio Greater Anglia train (I'd used it at the weekend, a rare event, and not replaced it in my jacket) and then had to pay a penalty fare when I reached my destination. Processed the appeal on line including a scan of my valid Season ticket and was refunded the full amount. As per p00hsticks reply, I wouldn't include any of the other factors or considerations in the appeal. just go with the fact that she inadvertently forgot to carry her valid rail card.

Good Luck!

wealdroam

doverswot wrote: »

I don't have a view on whether they can enforce you pay the penalty fare, however based on my experience it is definitely worth appealing. Last year I inadvertently traveled without my annual season ticket on an Abelio Greater Anglia train (I'd used it at the weekend, a rare event, and not replaced it in my jacket) and then had to pay a penalty fare when I reached my destination. Processed the appeal on line including a scan of my valid Season ticket and was refunded the full amount. As per p00hsticks reply, I wouldn't include any of the other factors or considerations in the appeal. just go with the fact that she inadvertently forgot to carry her valid rail card.

Good Luck!

That is an entirely different situation.

Season Ticket T&Cs specifically allow for it:

Season Tickets left at home

If you do not have your Season Ticket with you when you travel you must buy a ticket for your journey. You will be able to get a refund on the fare paid on the first two occasions this happens in any 12 month period.

There is no such term applicable to railcards, and Pinkshoes' post clearly shows that.

doverswot

Sorry Wealdroam, your are incorrect, this is not a completely different scenario.

If I had realised that I didn't have my season ticket before I traveled, then the T&C you posted would have applied. However, as I traveled without a valid ticket, the penalty fare was applied when I reached my destination, exactly the same scenario as the OP

I did purchase a ticket for the return ticket and reclaim this, as per the link you posted, but this wasn't relevant to the OP's post, so I didn't include it in my post.

I agree there the refund in this scenario isn't stated in any T&C's, however I wanted to share with the OP my experience.

Thanks