insolvent estate, difficult executor

Mojisola

RAS wrote: »

You mention a debt to a furniture store? Any of this hire purchase rather than consumer credit? If so they need to be told about her death.

Once you clarify that, make a list of the personal items (like books - 45) and ask brother to send it to the solicitors and ask what they want done with it.

They then have a choice of providing a skip or asking you to dispose of it.

This could also push them into making a decision as to whether they are going to administer the estate or not so you will know what's happening.

getmore4less

rpc wrote: »

Pay nothing. Things could get very messy if you intermeddle.

Arrange the funeral, have the bank pay the funeral director. Don't touch anything else.

As above not even the utilities.

I think get them changed, into the brothers name ASAP as he owns the house and this closes the accounts waiting for an administrator to step up.

Any questions from any one tell them to contact the executors/administrators.

Do not agree to anything other than the funeral, definately be carefull with solicitors they may claim you intructed them.

Remove anything of value from the place for "safe keeping", this is allowed and is not seen as intermedling.

I have seem this in some solicitors/step/act document somewhere about dealing with estates and intermedling, might take me some time to find it again if you need it.

as for the rest I would have to research what you can safely dispose off or what you might need to find some safe keeping space, for now leaving stuff in the house may be the best untill the space is needed.


You are also save notifying the death, just don't do anything else without checking, fall back is please contact the executors.

Blinkin73

Thanks again RAS for some very good suggestions. I think my brother has already let DFS know. I will ask him if he has copies of any credit agreement with them (he has all the paperwork we found re my mother) so I can check if it was a hire purchase or not. I will also get an inventory draw up.

We got her death certificate today, got an invoice from the funeral directors and went to the bank where things got a bit difficult though we did get a cheque to pay the funeral directors.

The difficulty occured because my brother doesnt appreciate the finer legal details. My mother had four accounts with the bank. Two jointly with my brother which if I am right, which I am sure I am, he can legally withdraw he monies in his own right. Two in her own name. One of the two in her own name contained the bulk of the funeral fees and the lady at the bank transfered £400 from one of the joint accounts to that account to total the FD's bill. I would have prefered her to make a cheque payable from my mothers sole account allowing my brother to remove from a joint account the remainder to pay the bill. My concern being that her funeral cost £3700 (including £130 to transport her from the hospital where she had her autopsy) and that because we transfered funds from a joint account that then became part of her estate and the Solicitors may say we used to much money for her funeral. If we hadnt of transfered the money then her estate would instead of paid out £3300, which looks a more modest sum. We have left £400 in joint accounts in total for the executors to take to pay towards her debts. My brother doesnt feel right taking that money as he didnt pay anything into the account, and I understand his view. I tried to explain to my brother the subtleties but as far as he is concerned its all mums monney anyway so it shouldnt matter. I didnt want to argue with my brother over the matter feel that we have left ourselves open to criticism from the executor with now.

On a seperate note is it just my brother and I or is it out of order that the executor/solicitors have not had any meaningful dialogue with us apart from one email replying to an email I sent on Tuesday 6th May. She died on Thursday 24th April , we informed them of her death on Tuesday 29th April after finding her will and after hearing nothing phoned again on Thursday 1st May to be told one of the partners would be dealing with it and they couldnt say who or when we would be contacted. I phoned again on 6th May and the partner was not available so I sent them the email I posed above. After receiving their reply as posted I sent a further email yesterday prior to getting your advise explaining we just wanted to bury our mother and were not intending to be her personal representative and asking how much it would cost for the deed and indemnity. So far no response from them. Is it usual practice to be so uninvolved with next of kin/the only beneficiaries of the will, not that we will benefit due to her debts. If we hadnt have proceeded as we have, without having any discussions with them, thier choice, her funeral would be delayed even further than it is. Should they be more proactive than they have been?

Sorry for all the questions

Mojisola

Blinkin73 wrote: »

My mother had four accounts with the bank. Two jointly with my brother which if I am right, which I am sure I am, he can legally withdraw he monies in his own right.

Two in her own name. One of the two in her own name contained the bulk of the funeral fees and the lady at the bank transfered £400 from one of the joint accounts to that account to total the FD's bill.

I would have prefered her to make a cheque payable from my mothers sole account allowing my brother to remove from a joint account the remainder to pay the bill.

My concern being that her funeral cost £3700 (including £130 to transport her from the hospital where she had her autopsy) and that because we transfered funds from a joint account that then became part of her estate and the Solicitors may say we used to much money for her funeral.

After receiving their reply as posted I sent a further email yesterday prior to getting your advise explaining we just wanted to bury our mother and were not intending to be her personal representative and asking how much it would cost for the deed and indemnity.

Any money in the joint accounts automatically became your brother's money when your mother died so he "gave" the £400 that was transferred from his account to your mother's account. It doesn't bring that account into the estate.

I would stop contacting the solicitors. You can organise your mother's funeral without their involvement. There is no way you should be paying the solicitors anything!

Blinkin73

Thank you Mojisola, I just dont want any come back from the solicitor/executers. We paid for the most expensive burial plot as per our mothers wishes but we will pay for the wake and headstone to offset this and leave the remainder of her funds in the joint accounts for them to use towards her debts. I think we are being fair. They appear to be a quarrelsone bunch and I am aware that their primary duty it towards paying creditors. Im worried they might try and put a stop on the FD's cheque so wont let them know about it until next week when the cheque should have cleared unless they decide to initiate contact.

Dont worry, my brother and I wont be paying a bean to them but we would have preferred to be open and have a dialogue with them about it all. Im astounded that they havent talked with us and am comtemplainting making a further complaint to them jointly with my brother.

Mojisola

Blinkin73 wrote: »

we will pay for the wake and headstone to offset this and leave the remainder of her funds in the joint accounts for them to use towards her debts. .

I would be interested to see the legal justification they would use if they tried to access the joint accounts.

Blinkin73

Ive only just seen Rpc and getmore's comments.

Im sorry I meant to say that we would use what she had in her account to pay for the funeral which we have. We are not paying her bills. The bank will close the account shortly and we named the executors as the point of contact for them.

What constitutes something of value? There is a broken/ chipped wooden chinese corner cabinet which my mother wanted me to have. This is my major concern re things of value. I shall do as RAS said and make a list of items in the flat, give it to the solicitors and ask what they want me to do with it, as Mojisola pointed out, this would force them to make a decision. But we dont really care what they do now, we just wanted to pay for her funeral.

So Mojisola, the executors cant use the funds in the joint account to pay the debts, as would be the situation for example a married couple with a joint account and one party to the marraige going bankrupt. Its definitely my brothers money? It would go some way towards paying for the wake.

Mojisola

https://www.gov.uk/wills-probate-inheritance/joint-property-and-bank-accounts
Joint bank and savings accounts
If you have a joint account with the person, what’s in it automatically passes to you.

It's probably not 100% legal but, if there are items which aren't worth anything but someone in the family would like, I'd be pragmatic and move them out now.

I really can't see the solicitors taking the work on when they know they won't get paid so they're not going to be interested.

Blinkin73

Thank you so so much for your help Mojisola. I will print that out and show my brother.

I cant see the solicitors taking on the work either when they realise that it is such a small estate and is indeed insolvent. But they appear to have indicated otherwise thus far and thats up to them. Good luck to them

A bereavement support group we phoned advised that even if the cabinet was worth a few hundred quid it would be classed as a chattel and therefore not part of her estate. But again if there was something official advising on what constitutes something of value then I am happy to proceed with moving the cabinet to my home guilt free. I dont seem to be a lucky person and if something can go wrong they generally do. I, like my brother, wish to do things by the book for this reason in this situation. My brother wouldnt agree to anything slightly dodgy. Im generally a bit more pragmatic as you say but in this situation I feel I need to be extra extra careful until I know what the solicitors are going to do. If they stand down as executors, its unlikely any of my mothers creditors will seek to administer the estate themselves and then I would feel I was on safer ground.

getmore4less

I would empty the joint accounts and close them.

The funeral bill does not seem that high.

I would not send an inventory to the solicitors, unless they take on the job.

As I said before be careful of inadvertently instructing them.

Keep one for your own use and satisfy yourself on value of things the reality is the cost of dealing with items makes them valueless.

As for the value of the chattels/inventory, let the executors/administrator worry about that if anyone steps up, just move stuff for safe keeping especially stuff you want to keep, you can always make an offer to buy things if it ever gets that far.

For the genuinely low value no one wants stuff it costs more to dispose so charity, freecycle etc. are way to get rid on the cheap just some of your time.

Store if you must but not sure it is worth bothering, any debts attached to an item check who owns them and if they want them back.

How urgent is it for your brother to get the house sorted?