What can I do, how long do I wait?

mumofronnienreggie

Hi.....
would appreciate any insight on this.....

I put in a claim for child maintenance a few months ago, after the expected setting up period first payment collection date was 9th April 2014. He did comply with requests for earnings info.
Unsurprisingly, no payment was made . Phoned to find out what was happening. Was informed that case was now with collections where they would attempt to make contact and reorganise collection, failing that, the case will go to enforcement.

We are now into May, I phoned a few days ago, and as expected, he is ignoring all contact with the CMS.
CMS are saying that they have to give him chance to make a payment ( understandable, they have proceedure to follow) however they stated ' once he has missed a FEW payments, we will begin enforcement proceedure' ...

A FEW???

I want some clarification on time lines and when this is going to go to enforcement.

I have asked what they can actually do to get the payment but again, feel as though the responses I'm getting are very non comittal.... we may take his licence ( unlikely, he drives for a living and thus would make any future attempts to make ayment impossible), we may send him to prison for up to 6 weeks ( he is an ex screw and judges dont send them to court often because of the extra protection he would need), we can take it straight from his wages or fine his employer ( he is his employer, director of his own limited company) , we may take it straight out of his bank account , ( my understanding is that unless he gives them the account details they cant do this? ) ... We can seize his assetts ( God wouldnt I love to .... preferably between a pair of scorching hot barbeque tongs!!) ... but he has none, no house, no car of value etc


the only thing he does have is a pension after he left a local government service on the grounds of ill health ( he is only in his 40's now) and gets a few hundred a month from that. Wouldnt cover all the money he owes each month ( to me and the other mums ) but would cover some.

this guy already owes the best part of 70k to two families before me ( long story.) .. both those mums have already given up hope of ever seeing anything and one of them is disabled in all honesty not in a position to do any more 'fighting'.

I find this appauling that he has gotten away with this for so many years and no one at the CSA ( when the case was there) did anything! Obviously now all the cases and arrears have been moved over to the new system.

What can I do? How long do I need to wait?

Any suggestions?

clearingout

please don't hold your breath is all I can say!

You will likely wait months...possibly years. There is a lot the self employed can do to manipulate the system so much will depend on just how far he wants to push it. With my ex, it got as far as them having an Order of Sale and a Possession Order for his home on the Tuesday before he finally admitted defeat and started paying on the Friday before. That was 5 years, almost to the day, after I first opened a case. I expect to return to the same situation again when he's paid off this part of the debt (more is continuing to accrue as he's only paying arrears) and for it to be another 5 years without payment.

I find the CSA staff respond well to complete understanding on my part that their hands are tied and that the system doesn't work for the self employed. Call them regularly - I used to do it every couple of weeks - and remain polite. Take notes as they're speaking to you and the name of the person you're speaking to and the date you're calling. Confirm any action on your part in writing (so if they ask on the phone for his car registration number, for example, follow it up in writing - you can also add in an extra layer of information giving by using email via their website). You will get fobbed off because a lot of the time, they just don't have an answer for you. Or not the one you want to hear. But if you keep at it, the system wheels do keep turning and reach a conclusion in the end.

Finally, I will be judgemental. One the biggest issues we face with maintenance as a society is that there is huge social respectability in dodging the CSA. If you stood back and had children with a man you knew wasn't doing his best by the children he already had (and I realise you may not have known), what did you expect? Also be aware that if there is £70K of arrears going back years, a good portion of that will likely be owed to the Secretary of State. Even if they do extract money from this man, don't assume you will get anywhere near what your current assessment says you are owed - a lot of people clearly have a share in any payments he makes.

mumofronnienreggie

Thanks for your reply .....

I have to say that if ppl knew the full story they would get the 70k situation, but its not something I'm prepared to go into on here.

I expected exactly what he is doing.... and my main reason for fighting is because his children from one of the former marriages is really in need of that additional support and not in any position to fight him, establishment etc... and I am hoping that by me chasing my case, will mean that the entire lot as a whole will be persued .... hence why I don't want to sit back on my laurels ..... I shall be the (polite) proverbial pain in their bum. Any pennies that come through for mine will enable luxuries to be covered for them ( new clothes and shoes that are in addition to required basics, days out for them, perhaps a holiday for them for the first time ever) but without them we are eating, paying the bills etc .... Yes some of the arrears will go to the state, but not all and he is still supposed to be payng them money on top of the arrears anyway, thats all included and accounted for in the assessment.
My understanding is that they have to take the current maintenance payments out of funds available first and then hit the rest for arrears?

He isn't self employed, he is employed, by his own Ltd company so slightly different .. am assuming they can fine his company the same as if it was someone else's company. ( And if he dissolves his ltd company and goes sole trader, he wont be able to do the work he does due to the demands and constraints of the required insurances .. and he has no other skills / work options).

I have been phoning them every couple of weeks so far but have got nothing of any value from those calls ( always pleasant staff but that's it) .... Am I allowed to speak to my caseworker? I don't seem to be able to get passed the front desk person. I really don't think it's acceptable to 'wait a few months' before it goes to enforcement. How hard can I push them and what can I push them with?

clearingout

The employment/self employment thing is neither here nor there - he's the one responsible for releasing payments which he clearly isn't going to do without someone pushing him. Yes, they can fine the company but the simple fact seems to be that they don't. You should also bear in mind that they are limited as to what they can tell you 'cos of the Data Protection thing so you don't always really find out what's going on because they can only give you your side of it. What will (eventually) happen is that your case will be passed to criminal compliance and someone will be sent out to speak with him - if he's really clever, he'll dodge this and then they're kind of back to square one (or that's how it seems).

I can't answer your question regarding payments - for me, arrears are currently being paid (more or less) but the on-going maintenance isn't. In fact, the on-going case is back with criminal compliance but that's a whole other story!

You should have a named caseworker in enforcement so do ask - although to speak to that person they have to be in when you phone or not in the loo or taking another phone call so it's a bit hit and miss. I have had some of my more informative conversations with staff in the evenings after 6pm as they seem a little less stressed and more willing to discuss. It does depend who you get - some of them are, frankly, useless and tell you whatever it is they think you want to hear. I have been told all sorts - stuff I know not to be true - so it does help to clue yoruself up as best you can using forums like this one. The simple fact is that self employment and the CSA is just a massive black hole that no one seems able to deal with effectively and certainly not efficiently.

For me one of the biggest failings of the CSA is the way it is administrated - cases are passed from department to department without any one person having overall responsibility for a case so there is no one keeping an eye out that things are happening as they should be happening. I have had contact with some amazing people (the latest I wish I could name 'cos he's fab and so beautifully cynical laced with a good dose of optimism!) and some not so amazing so the fact the cases get passed on I guess sometimes works in our favor. So you need to do it yourself, really, just keep on top of it. Just keep phoning. Keep notes. Keep polite. Keep a sense of humour. Your MP may be able to pull strings - but you will need your notes and a clear history of things not happening before they'll help out.

You will need to 'wait a few months' for enforcement. I don't know the reasons but I will hazard a guess it's two-fold: firstly, they're busy so it can take a while for cases to rise to the top. There does seem to be some evidence that those who shout loudest (and most politely!) get to the top more quickly; secondly, what ultimately happens is that legal action is taken by the CSA on your behalf with the courts. The courts are a whole other ball game and require evidence that everything possible has been done to get the NRP to comply - part of that evidence is giving opportunity after opportunity to comply....You kind of have to trust that they know what they're doing so that their case is water tight should court be the ultimate destination.

Sorry not to be more positive. It can take years. Much will depend on your ex's stomach for defying 'authority' - the stronger it is, the longer you'll wait!

mumofronnienreggie

Again.. thank you for your reply. Its all much as I expecte.
I rather suspect that he is getting ready to run again as apparntly he was showing ppl around the house last time my kids were visiting him. Hate to say it, but there is part of me that wishes he would just run and disappear and get out of evryones lives that he has attempted to destroy. However if he does move he cant have our children visit until I have the correct address, ( in the contact order) .. in the man time I shall continue to phone the CMS once a fortnight but I might start to get a bit more demanding about timescales etc etc ... im just not ok with being told ' when he has missed a few' .. especially not with his history.
*sighs*

mumofronnienreggie

well it turns out that he hadn't complied with providing his earning and they made an assessment based on what inland rev. told CSA he was last earning .... he has now told them that he is earning nothing ..... and I have been awarded £3.50 a week . He is working full time, driving lorries , but as the director ( employee) of his own limited company. Living in a big 4 b'roomed house, not to mention the new car he recently acquired ...

so its off to the private investigation firm I go so that I can see if I can get any decent ( acceptable by CSA ) evidence of all this so that a mandatory review can be done.

I could scream ... and this is only the beginning.

HoneyNutLoop

Or, you could try applying for a variation for unearned income, as dividends come under that, rather than earned income. If the company has been trading long enough to submit accounts, you could pay a very small fee to companies house to obtain the last set of statutory accounts to see if you can glean something from there.

Is the house mortgaged? If so, when, and for how much? Is it jointly or solely owned?

The car is irrelevant. The company could quite easily be paying for that.

Do you mean that CMS have obtained details of his income from HMRC, or that they have used income details previously supplied to the CSA?

mumofronnienreggie

I am under CMS, the new system , but they are collecting ( or not ) on my behalf as it was a DV r'ship ..... I asked about a variation order on the phone today and was told that they didn't exist on the new system and all I could do was request a mandatory review but she couldn't tell me ( at all) what that would actually mean in real terms ( what they would do, could do, what was evidence etc).

His first set of accounts is due in April 2015, but Returns, July 2014, according to companies house.

House is rented, with his new partner.
Car, I doubt is through company, he doesn't do enough miles but obviously I can't write this off completely until I see his accounts when available.

Because he ignored all the letter sent to him when I opened the case up in Jan (2014), the CMS went direct to Inland Rev to get the most upto date info that they had.

HoneyNutLoop

Variations do exist on the 2012 scheme. The booklet you were sent with your Welcome Pack About how child maintenance is worked out includes information about them. Refer to pages 12/13 and 34-36.

CMS obtain wage info from HMRC before they contact a paying parent, not because they haven't replied. This is an intentional design of the 2012 scheme, so that they do not need to rely on parents providing income details to progress the case. The income obtained from HMRC is used to create a provisional calculation, the notice of which is the first contact the paying parent will receive.

The house being rental doesn't help much either than. If it had been a recent mortgage application, he would have needed to provide proof of income to the lender for the mortgage, which has been used before on appeal to determine income for child maintenance.

What evidence do you hope a PI would obtain that CMS would accept, especially within the calendar month time limit for mandatory reconsideration?

PreludeForTimeFeelers

Variations *do* still exist on CMS 2012, you've been told the wrong information there.

Update: This is what happens when I open a page but don't respond straight away, HoneyNutLoop replies with a lot more useful information than me!

mumofronnienreggie

Thankyou ..... I have a horrid feeling that I threw away the booklet they sent at the begining ( b#ger!!) Am waiting for the official new payment schedule to come through in the post .. she told me I couldn't do anything until I had got the actual letter . I said that I found that a bit odd as I could have told her I'd got the letter on the phone and she wouldn't have known any different ( it was posted Friday so should be with me tomorrow).

I think I was hoping that I could evidence that he is infact working full time .. he must be pulling in a minimum of 22k a year as a full time lorry driver ... which leads me to question where the heck is he getting his money from if he isnt drawing a salary?

So do I go for a Variation Order, or do I go for a Mandatory Reconsideration?