flat renovation cost

bwarp

Hi.


I'm doing a flat renovation and it's clear the builder has defrauded me by agreeing to stuff he should not have and then not doing it. Mainly this has been that I purchased by agreement a full design and project management service, but it has become clear he does not have the capability to do this, with me having to get involved constantly and things constantly going wrong on top of that.

This is to a ridiculous extent with it being clear he is actually doing two jobs at once, and things like designing and project managing mine are being squeezed in with the other one. He constantly is telling me I have to find materials etc myself on the internet etc. I'm even getting calls from him about deliveries having arrived but there is no one there so I have to go to sort it out. An expensive delivery even got damaged because he didn't have anyone there to carry it into my flat properly. It has started to get ridiculous.

However, ironically, in his attempt to do this he may have ended up giving me a reasonable deal anyway, meaning that what might have happened is that he tried to defraud me into his getting a lucrative building contract by advertising he can do design and project management, but then ended up not even getting such a lucrative building contract even without them.

I want to understand exactly the situation as I have no choice but to complete with him. I know he defrauded me regarding the sort of service he can provide, but I want to know clearly if he is blatantly defrauding me on cost as well.

So please can someone that genuinely knows assess the market value of this project:-

Full flat renovation of small flat including:-

New bathroom:- Removing old one. Installing all fixtures and fittings including complex design features and lighting. Installing stone tiling on walls and floor including heating etc.
New kitchen:- Removing old one. Installing all fixtures and fittings including complex design features and lighting. Installing stone tilling on walls and floor including heating etc.
Renovating rest of flat:- Removing old. Wallpapering three rooms. Installing complex design features and lighting. Installing wardrobe in bedroom. Installing curtains in two rooms. Installing carpet in three rooms and soft floor in storage cupboard. Painting three rooms and storage cupboard. Installing four new doors.

This includes all plumbing, electrical and renovation work.

The original quote was £25,000 all inclusive, which included furnishing. This has been adjusted several times due to discussions, and is basically now £35,000-£40,000 all inclusive, including furnishing, of which £30,000 will be paid to him for all permanent installations, while I arrange furnishings with the rest. The labour cost is officially £11,500, but I am concerned he is also defrauding me by double charging me, for example, I think he will subcontract a carpet company, which will be installation included, and then include all of it in the materials cost, etc, and I am also concerned he is being as fraudulent as billing me more than he is paying for materials because he considers any work he does getting a better price his labour, or even including delivery costs in materials that go to him for picking it up, etc, so it is hard to give an exact labour cost.

However, I think given the scope of the work, despite his fraudulence, I might actually be paying something reasonable, but I'm not sure.

It is annoying that it is getting towards the cost of quotes I was getting from interior design companies, which really is all inclusive and would have saved all this hassle and having to install damaged stuff etc, while he persuaded me to go with him with his 25,000 all inclusive quote, but then started removing his service and increasing the cost gradually etc. He says this is because my choices are so expensive and with them a 40,000 interior design quote would have actually ended up nearer 75,000. I dispute this.

All help is appreciated.

Thanks very much.

J

Procrastinator333

The market value of the project is irrelevant.

What was in the contract that you signed with him? It should have clearly listed out what was required and the amount you were to pay for those services.

Has he done everything stated in the contract? If yes, then pay him what it states in the contract. If not, then presumably you set milestone payments so that you would not pay him until works were done and completed. So don't pay him till those milestones are achieved.

phill99

Why are you asking the same question again? Do you think you will get a different answer this time?

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/65341131#Comment_65341131

And accusing somebody of fraud is very harsh. Chose your words carefully. If you think he has committed an act of fraud, then get the police involved. If not, use different terms. He may have failed to execute his part of the contract, which is certainly not the same as fraud.

Doozergirl

I have a client who is buying a £60,000 kitchen. Your problem is that there is no market value until you agree and know what you are buying.

£25,000 is a realistic price for a certain level of quality, but it isn't for another. Neither of you seem to know what you were measuring.

bwarp

On top of the £30,000 I have ended up paying him already he now wants another £5000 to finish, despite being a month late, and blaming it on me not arranging design and ordering in time, despite that I originally paid him all inclusive for design, project management and materials and labour.


Basically an id company quoted me £33-39k for the whole project, and he said he could do exactly what they would do for £25k. I am now paying about 38k with him cos he escalated costs on me, and having to do most the design and project management myself.


This is a complicated situation but to decide what to do I need a clear view of value. I've already paid him £30,000 and paid over £5000 more on furniture myself that he was supposed to supply. still only about half the work is done if that and he wants another £5k this week to finish, meaning I pay him £15,000 more than I agreed originally and he gets all of it by half way through with nothing at the end. I think he trying to exploit me and i'm ready to properly lose it with him both in person and then officially with complaints and legal action, but it's hard to do this as i'm still clueless on value. Maybe he is right about values of all this, that's what I need to know.


I say fraud because persuading me to employ him by advertising he would provide a service he was not going to provide, and saying he would charge less than a company that would provide it, is fraud. So no silly replies about that please, I just really want to know the real costs involved or opinions about the arrangement.


Thanks.


J

Procrastinator333

Same answer.

The "value" as you put it is irrelevant.

What matters is the scope of works as set out in the contract and the price as set out in the contract. Each of you is required to fulfil your obligations.

If he has not delivered on his obligations as set out in the contract. Do not pay him.

If he has done what it says in the contract, then pay him and stop moaning because you have now realised you could have got it cheaper.

If you didn't draw up a contract, then you are screwed and it is going to get very messy and nasty. And that is the fault of both parties for not sorting out a contract.

Doozergirl

When you say 'no silly replies', we're yet to get a question that we can gve any answer to.

This rolls on and on. You are as bad as each other. If between the two of you, you could not pull together a contract that agreed what you were getting and how much it cost, then this was entirely inevitable.


You need to list an exact specification of what you have had done and include brand names etc for fittings. Or quit asking us vague questions and accusing us of bad answers.

Builders as a breed aren't huge profiteers. If something costs £40k with one, exactly the same thing cannot cost £25k with another. One isn't making £20k profit and the other £5k. If BMW quote you £40k for a "car" you won't get the same BMW "car" from a Kia dealer for £25k even if it sounds the same. With builders, for one to be over 50% higher for GENUINELY exactly the same thing it usually means that one is a huge company with massive overheads (brand name stuff) and the other is tiny AND has no idea how to run a business and has underquoted. Being small and bad at your job don't come together as a package, bit that kind of difference in price is wrong.

If you have it all down in writing to compare, then you can work out whether they were quoting for exactly the same thing. If the guy doesn't speak proper English then you have a problem from the start.