QUESTION: So what would be valid parking?

Carthesis

This is a serious question - not that I'm not grateful to this board and everyone on it for the work they out in to help people who are being scammed, but it seems to some extent a little unfair that landowners and business operators to some extent have little to no control over who can park on their land and for what purpose.

Thus, I was considering on the way home the following question:

If one were to make the generous and sweeping assumption that out there somewhere there was a caring, legitimate PPC who sought only to ensure fair parking for all and to prevent people simply extracting the urine from the landowner, what would they have to do to ensure that the usual and basic grounds for appeal that are put forward are not applicable?

Let us take the semi-fictional situation of a retail park, with a nearby entertainment complex and large indoor arena used for concerts and the like.

The owners of the retail park wish to provide free parking for customers, while preventing or discouraging non-customers from using their car park for other purposes (such as attendance at a concert).

The obvious solution is to simply utilise pay-and-display, however this prevents free parking for customers and could disrupt business. This could be combined with a 'validation' system for tickets of genuine customers, but this would likely be expensive to implement.

The offer of a certain amount of free parking time followed by a charge would not be sufficient to prevent non-customers from using the parking and potentially disrupting on-site retail businesses due to lack of available parking. The 'breach of contract' issue means that even if one were to exceed the free time, the amount to be paid would be insufficient to discourage non-customers.

The use of a large sign at the entrance stating this to be a paid car-park at some expensive rate - let us say £25 per hour - which would be levied by invoice after the fact using ANPR or similar, and would be waived for 'genuine' customers. This however creates a minefield in defining what is and is not a 'customer' in context. For example, someone goes to the shop looking to purchase something, only to find nothing suitable or the item is not in stock, and thus leaves with no purchase and no proof of 'valid' custom to allow the subsequent charge to be waived.

We are told that representatives from PPCs frequent the forums, so perhaps giving them suggestions for how a car-park should be run, such that it is 'fair' for all concerned parties, might encourage them to re-think their business model?

(Yes yes, naivety and hopeless optimism abounds, I know!:rotfl:)

Thoughts anyone?

Guys_Dad

Northampton has some car parks where you get a ticket and pay when you leave. You insert your ticket in a machine. It tells you what to pay. You pay it. Your ticket gets validated. You present your ticket to a barrier. It opens. You leave.

Cambridge has similar as do many cities. Perfectly able to have a machine that has no charge for 2 hours and validates your ticket if you stay for less time.

Easy

wiogs

The system as described by Guys Dad is so simple yet effective it would put many a PPC out of business.

Wonder why more places can't be bothered to implement it?

Guys_Dad

wiogs wrote: »

The system as described by Guys Dad is so simple yet effective it would put many a PPC out of business.

Wonder why more places can't be bothered to implement it?

Because it costs the Landlord money.

Much more tempting to get a "free" service from a PPC unfortunately. Or even an income from the PPC, as the current thread on Cambridge super case and Parking Prankster blogspot both report.

bargepole

wiogs wrote: »

The system as described by Guys Dad is so simple yet effective it would put many a PPC out of business.

Wonder why more places can't be bothered to implement it?

My local Sainsbury's has just such a system.

You pass a barrier at the entrance, which spits out a plastic card. Provided you spend at least £15, and stay less than 4 hours, parking is free. Otherwise, it's £5.

So you get your card validated at the tills (generally they do this anyway without checking the amount spent), insert it into the slot at the exit barrier, it lifts up and off you go.

The system is operated by Euro Car Parks, who presumably charge a management fee to Sainsbury for operating this. A perfectly fair and workable solution.

Redx

Guys_Dad wrote: »

Northampton has some car parks where you get a ticket and pay when you leave. You insert your ticket in a machine. It tells you what to pay. You pay it. Your ticket gets validated. You present your ticket to a barrier. It opens. You leave.

Cambridge has similar as do many cities. Perfectly able to have a machine that has no charge for 2 hours and validates your ticket if you stay for less time.

Easy

this is similar to salford royal hospital, but the system there gives you a plastic token at the entry barrier , after your visit you put this into a machine that tells you what to pay (the signage all around the site also tells you the rates per hour etc too) , you pay , the yellow plastic token is given back and you insert it at the exit barrier

I believe the first 20 minutes is free so I assume a simple dropoff within 20 minutes means you do not pay on exit

fisherjim

There is a car park in Chiswick, belonging to Sainsbury, you pass through a barrier and take a ticket, you then get 30mins free parking and validate your ticket at an external machine which lets you exit at the barrier, no problem.
If you park over the time limit, the machine charges £1 per hour up to two hours, though still free if you spend more than £5 at the store.
If you go over 2 hours its £50, though disabled badge holders are still free.
It's a clear well signed legitimate parking fee and being London extortionate but you at least you know where you stand.

bazster

Physical barriers are the only answer. People say "why should landowners suffer the cost because of inconsiderate parkers?", to which I say: why should I suffer the cost of locks on the doors and windows of my house because of inconsiderate burglars? But I do.

Carthesis

The pay'n'display system, while clearly the easiest solution, doesn't do much for controlling the use of the parking though - if you've got the retail park, a leisure complex and an arena of some kind, it doesn't stop people (as frequently happens near me) parking in the retail park when they go to see a concert at the arena.

If this happens at gone 20:00 when the shops are shut, you'd consider this no harm, no foul. If it's a Ceebeebies concert or something and you've got people parking there and blocking parking spaces you want available for customers, pay'n'display of the forms suggested don't prevent that. Realistically, this is the situation that landowners - particularly those who operate such retail parks - are attempting to achieve when they employ PPCs.

(The PPC is, obviously, just out to make money by scamming as many people as possible and hoping they don't get found out!)

Are we therefore just saying its a necessary evil to be tolerated, or is there a way to get around it?

Again, I bring this up only out of curiosity as to if there is a better way.

bazster

No-one has mentioned pay-and-display at all. All the systems that have been described in this thread are barrier-controlled pay-on-exit systems.

If you don't want people parking for more than, say, 2 hours then you simply ramp up the charges e.g. 2 hours free for customers (with some kind of refund or ticket validation mechanism). Non-customers or over two hours, £20 all day. Or whatever, the point being that high charges are not in themselves evil, so long as they are genuinely charges (i.e. you know what you are getting for your payment), the motorist is properly able to consent to them (by advertising them on the entry ticket as well as by signage), and there is a functioning, convenient, on-the-spot means of payment.