advice on flat renovation costs

stebiz

I've just had a full refurb done onmy house along with a loft conversion. I used to be involved in the building game years back but then moved to office and tie - too much hard work :D but even I have been amazed at some of the prices builders/plumbers etc came in with.

It made the job a lot more drawn out whilst I found contractors willing to work for a reasonable salary rather than mega bucks. But I did find them and I got some excellent work done at a reasonable rate. But even then labour has outstripped materials 70/30. Long gone the days of 50/50 and I think you are probably on a good deal.

The answer would have been to get 'jobbers' or 'day workers' in to do the more menial tasks and leave the real money for decent skilled tradesmen.

I was quoted many silly prices along the way.

10 fire doors and frames including removal of existing

£4,000 - the doors cost £1,000
That would have equated to £3,000 labour for less than a weeks work.
I contacted a door company and hired one of their joiners at £100 a door and frame.
He still ended up with what I consider a good wage of £1,000 and was finished in 4 days.
So where the costs could have been 25/100 it was closer to 50/100

Same for the plumbing.

Quoted £5,000 for bathroom. Materials were less than £900. I juggled between a few trades and got it done for 1.6k.

If I hadn't have juggled so much I wouldn't have got half of the work I wanted doing.

So in answer 50/50 is a fair rate.

Doozergirl

A wardrobe or the components of one often cost little, the labour cost ican be very high. A kitchen with stone worktops will cost more in materials than it does in labour.

I don't think a pretty throw away comment of 50/50 qualifies you or us yet to make a decision that the materials cost is 'fine' but labour is high. Either the builder gave you a price where he decided he was splitting materials and labour 50/50 or he's had aquick think and decided.

I don't spilt our prices by materials and labour to be able to say off my head, but from what I pay out, wages are much higher and more often!

Is the builder VAT registered? If he is, the government is taking a whopping chunk. £350 a day isn't exactly excessive for one skilled trade and one labourer per day. Especially if they include their own materials, like a plumber or electrician often do.

There isn't enough for us to go on here for us to advise. . It isn't implausible, but I'd err on the side of wages being higher.

What we need to address is what the extras are and how he justifies them. If he's undercharged you on labour and is trying to make it up, maybe, or if he is trying it on. We can't guess.

bwarp

The deal is he arranges everything and I just pay him 25k. Just the few things that boggled me were that I've ended up doing much more of the prep and design work than expected in our all inclusive contract, which includes design and project management, and when he first quoted me he quoted 10k, about 50/50 split, for a basic renovation job, then when I explained my project, and the budget of 25k+, he's kept the 50/50 split without telling me, so now he's saying for my selections he needs more money and I'm confused when he quoted me 25k knowing what my plan was. Does me installing better stuff like marble versus ceramic etc really increase labour cost by 7.5k, or 150%? Maybe it does but I just want piece of mind I'm not being ripped off and he just didn't see an easy few k towards his retirement fund for doing nothing. Between the 2 things I've been left thinking why didn't I just accept the 40k quotes I was getting from professional ID companies which really would be all inclusive. He told me with them with my expensive material selections it would have ended up going to nearer 75k. I'm just worried he's exploiting me.

Doozergirl

Ok, we'll he's talking rubbish then. You had two quotes for £40k, one for £25k, you picked that one and you didn't agree specifically what he was quoting for? What were the quality of other quotes like?

I know that this industry has a reputation, but it is there for a reason! Some of us are trying to do this properly.

How far into this project are you? Of course £7.5k on top of an agreed price is ridiculous for purely labour. My tiler would charge an extra £5-10 a metre labour for marble tiles and we'd have to expect more waste. It sounds like he's quoted incorrectly in the first place and stuck his finger in the air. He won't be retiring on it, he's probably trying claw back by feeding you BS. Why people can't be honest, I don't know.

Do you have a copy of the quotation, please?

bwarp

here is the part of the contract relating to payment:-

• Contract object

1. According to the following terms and conditions established CONTRACTOR undertakes to perform the following tasks listed and evaluated:

Task title
Price
Supply and install new bathroom suite including labour and all needed materials. (as per email with quotes)
Supply and install new kitchen with appliances ( as per discusion with customer, after the final desision)
Decorating whole flat
New design, decorating, carpets, curtains, furniture, doors and locks







Total cost of tasks
£25000

• Payment terms

1. CONTRACTOR issues an invoice to CUSTOMER for the £ 1000 after this contract is signed
   (Booking in fee + design ideas and consultation) payment will be deducted from the total quote
2. CONTRACTOR issues an invoice to CUSTOMER for the £4000 before ordering bathroom and building materials (paint, tiles, bathroom suite, rubbish removal etc.)
3. CONTRACTOR issues an invoice to CUSTOMER for the £2000 after completion of %50 of bathroom renovation work
4. CONTRACTOR issues an invoice to CUSTOMER for the £2000 after completion of all bathroom renovation works.
5. CONTRACTOR issues an invoice to CUSTOMER for the £5000 before ordering kitchen units and appliances
6. CONTRACTOR issues an invoice to CUSTOMER for the £1500 after completion of %50 of kitchen installation works
7. CONTRACTOR issues an invoice to CUSTOMER for the £1500 after completion of all kitchen installation works.
8. CONTRACTOR issues an invoice to CUSTOMER for the £1250 after %50 of making good and decorating works
9. CONTRACTOR issues an invoice to CUSTOMER for the £1250 after completion of decorating works.
10. CONTRACTOR issues an invoice to CUSTOMER for the £4500 before ordering all furniture, carpets and other features
11. CONTRACTOR issues an invoice to CUSTOMER for the £1000 after fitting all furniture and carpets.

The problem is to me, and in English, this was just a payment schedule, because I assumed him paranoid and I happy to pay him as we went along I had no problem agreeing to it. But he is not English and he has since explained to me to he meant it to be a breakdown of costs, as if there is a word 'for' inserted in a each sentence. Had I knows he meant this I probably wouldn't have agreed without checking the industry.

Doozergirl

Supply and install new bathroom suite including labour and all needed materials. (as per email with quotes)
Supply and install new kitchen with appliances ( as per discusion with customer, after the final desision)
Decorating whole flat
New design, decorating, carpets, curtains, furniture, doors and locks

Where is the detail of this and what it includes?

This is utter rubbish and written for the builder's benefit to get paid. It doesn't tell you what materials you are getting, or protect him on his expenditure. What was on the quote that he mentions?

Ultimately, this says "supply and fit" all over it and so therefore, he supplies and fits. It suggests that you had already chosen most of the fixtures and fittings when he provided that payment schedule. What changed - anything?

What's the situation now? Is work still ongoing? Has he sent a new invoice? If he does, I would demand an absolute breakdown of what he is charging for what - price per square meter for tiling, days for additional work for what trade etc. the lot, and we can take a look at that. You are entitled to that, not just a demand.

I think you've both made mistakes here in that you seem to have made assumptions of each other. He's either a bit slow or devious, we don't know which, and you need to protect your own interests by getting clear agreements in writing. You can't assume a bargain when there's no clear scope of work.

Vetyver

Depending on where you are, I think £12.5k labour sounds good.

I am in London and am undergoing a very similar reno right now: tiny wee flat; flooring, decoration, kitchen, bathroom etc; except mine also includes central heating, windows and rewiring, and not furnishing. I went round the houses for quotes, and they ranged from £18k to £24k labour only. And I agree it is very, very tough to get anything in writing.

£7.5k extra for a mere change in materials sounds like taking the **** though - it should be higher, but not that much. I think that builders get a bit trigger-happy with extra labour prices once there's any whiff of changes to the plan. I'm anxious about how much things are going to go overbudget as changes are necessarily made along the way.

bwarp

I'm going to ask him for receipts for all purchases. If he doesn't give them straight away i'll know something's dodgy. What i'm thinking at the moment is that he has tried to pull one, but it's not really worked, cos i'm loading lots of specialist labour and he is bound by his labour costs. If I do work out he's being dodgey i'll just mess everything for him legally after, but I need to get the job finished so not got much choice.

bwarp

there's no written details, just our chats

Owain_Moneysaver

bwarp wrote: »

Does me installing better stuff like marble versus ceramic etc really increase labour cost by 7.5k, or 150%?

Yes, it may do.

Perhaps his labourer can install ceramic tiles, but not marble, so he has to subcontract this part of the job out, or he has to hire in a wet tile cutting machine which is more expense and a lot slower to use instead of scoring and snapping ceramic tile by hand.

You cannot expect the labour cost to remain the same on an Luxury Job compared to a Basic Job. The workers on a Luxury job will take more time and care to get a higher quality finish with more expensive materials.

You can forget the fixed ratio labour/materials as costing simply does not work that way. It sounds like you have accepted a quite for a basic but unspecified finish and are now requesting a completely different nature of work. Of course the builder can put his labour costs up. If you aren't happy with that then ask for a requote to a detailed specification, and if that doesn't appeal then pay the builder for work done to date and get another builder.