opinions please - bull terrier ban at doggy day care

elsien

Before I start, this is not about devil dogs, staffies being great around children, and the polarised views that this sort of debate normally gets. I'm not interested in how soft various breeds are around people, deed not breed or whether they should be banned, that's irrelevant. This is purely about dog on dog aggression.

I will own up to a vested interest in that I am a bull terrier woman through and through, English bull terriers are my breed of choice.

My dog trainer has set up an open plan dog day care centre and has decided that despite initial plans to assess each dog individually they are happy to accept any breed for training, but will now not accept bull terriers/bull breeds in the day care.
Their line of reasoning (having spoken to dog wardens, owners, kennel club etc) is that although no more dog aggressive than some other breeds, the reluctance to back down if they are challenged, along with the powerful physique and strong jaws, they can do a lot of damage very quickly and the centre feel they would not be able to break up a fight if one did start quickly or safely enough. So they're basically saying the bull breeds probably won't start the fight, but they'll definitely finish it.

Now it's their business, they can have whatever rules they like. But it got me wondering how valid that point of view is, given that there must be other powerful breeds who'd also be difficult to manage in that sort of situation, rotties etc. So I thought I'd throw it out there to see what other people thought. (I've never had to break up a bad fight between any dog, but I'm sure other breeds must have some similar issues?)

Informed opinions welcome, ill-informed prejudices less so.

codemonkey

The woman who takes CD when we go on holiday told us she doesn't accept bull breeds anymore since she saw a couple of them turn on another dog. She also won't take huskies as one jumped her high fence and escaped.

I'm also aware that the authorities won't allow you to adopt a child if you own a "dangerous dog". Seems a bit odd to me - you could have the softest cuddliest staffie and be turned down just because it's got that label.

elsien

I suppose I'm not querying the logic so much as asking why just bull terriers, as there isn't the blanket ban on other large powerful breeds. Or do people think the bull breeds would be worse than any other in the same situation?
It could also be a commercial decision, I guess, not wanting to put off other owners because of the reputation of bull terriers?

lisawood78

We have unofficial been advised that we Would have to rehome our two Great Danes if we ever wish to adopt.
Saying that, I'm surprised more places don't refuse Danes, so far I've only come across some 'dog friendly' hotels and ferries that have refused the due to their size.
I hope that they have many rules and procedures in place to minimise any problems they may get With dogs fighting, regardless of breed. There Are plenty of dogs that Simply won't get along with each other so I hope they are not just thinking 'No bull breeds-no fights'

Finst

I have read several times that bull terriers tend to do more damage than other similar strength dogs, because they have a tendency to bite and hold on, whereas other dogs are more likely to bite and let go. The terrier nature aligned with the strength, if you will. This would support your trainer's approach.

Having said that, while I have read it in a number of places, I have no idea whether it is actually true or not!

Katiehound

How sad... bull breeds are certainly not the only dogs that can be viewed as aggressive. My old boy beagle x(now sadly deceased) was a terror when it came to spaniels however he went into kennels and they all ran around together. Of course the owners assessed which dogs would be fine that way.

I suspect the day care owners in your case are caving in to the general public's perception with a view to prevent losing business. It doesn't take much imagination to over hear this:"Oh goodness, they have those nasty bull breeds...it's not safe... I won't take my dog there."

Some small dogs can be aggressive- I can think of snarling Jack Russels and equally I can think of Jack Russels who would lick other dogs to death. It doesn't take into account the personality and nature of each individual dog.

I have been involved in a dog fight... separating 2 hound girls...my own. Not to be recommended. They were fine with other dogs but not each other.

elsien

They're not saying they're more aggressive. Just harder to manage safely if a situation does arise. I was wondering about shar peis for example, also bred as fighting dogs and also powerful. Maybe it's because they're less prevalent?

D&DD

Hiya Elsien I think she'd possibly extend it to the shar pei but not for the same reasons as the bully breeds.
I have found a lot of dogs are very wary of my Rosie at first meeting as the way a shar pei stands is a naturally aloof posture,combined with the folds on their face the dogs have a hard time reading her so a dog that's not very confident may be upset which unbalances things..


The dogwalker I chat to has a lifetimes experience with all breeds and he will walk peis but not staffys (although he does do a lovely bulldog like yours) as he had a few bad experiences with various ones and he has a huge pack of around 20 dogs he walks everyday.


I know I'm biased lol but I have never met a nasty shar pei they like to play and in equal measure are happy just being left alone to sniff around,they do seem to know their manners a lot more than many breeds I have met,with dogs and humans...


One of the reasons the breed nearly died out was because of their reluctance to fight and I hate the name they got as a fighting dog.They were originally bred as an all purpose farm dog to protect the herds etc.The wrinkles were bred in so they could turn and grab anything that attacked them.


Also the way they are bred now with the over enhanced meat mouth they are nothing like the traditional pei used to fight.


I agree still powerful,strong dogs but their muzzle is such a shape that not so much damage could be done.


Sorry to go on lol so in answer to your question *at last she says* I can see why the knee jerk reaction as you say due to public opinion and all that but I can also think of far worse breeds I have met who have been downright nasty (pappilons) yappy and in your dogs face (jack russels.anydoodles and pugs) and snappy (huskies) so will she be banning all these too??

GBNI

Finst wrote: »

I have read several times that bull terriers tend to do more damage than other similar strength dogs, because they have a tendency to bite and hold on, whereas other dogs are more likely to bite and let go. The terrier nature aligned with the strength, if you will. This would support your trainer's approach.

Having said that, while I have read it in a number of places, I have no idea whether it is actually true or not!

This is what I've always been lead to believe as well. They bite, they hold and they mean it. You hear a lot of trying to break up fights involving these breeds and the dog needs to be beaten (I have even read stabbed!) to get it to drop.

Not saying it's all true, but could be a deciding factor.

As for Shar peis, it could well be that you just don't see them as much? So they perhaps haven't considered them as a breed they don't want.

nonnatus

Hmmm. I used to have a little Border Terrier who was gentle as a lamb until she developed a terrible hatred for her doggy sister. The b1tch on b1tch aggression was horrendous to witness but what was worse was when the Border Terriers jaws "locked" into place on her sisters muzzle and NOTHING could prize them apart.
The Border was re-homed and is now very happy but I'd fear hew terrible jaws over any staffie!
So the woman's prejudices are just that - prejudiced! HER experience of Staffies has led her to believe they are devil dogs. I think that's sad and unfair - any dog can be a devil dog and even a fluffy poodle will attack a child in the wrong circumstances.

elsien

nonnatus wrote: »

So the woman's prejudices are just that - prejudiced! HER experience of Staffies has led her to believe they are devil dogs. I think that's sad and unfair - any dog can be a devil dog and even a fluffy poodle will attack a child in the wrong circumstances.

I don't think it's about prejudice in that narrow a sense and I don't think they've had bad experience of staffies/bull terriers either - Gitdog's a favourite at training classes. This is a decision made after consultation with various other parties. And as I said at the start, this has absolutely nothing to do with children, that's not relevant.

The original plan was definitely to assess all dogs on an individual basis rather than on breed, but something has changed that. My suspicion is as Katiehound said: that a customer raised the issue and when they looked into it further they were unable to genuinely give the necessary assurances. I can understand their logic, I'm just trying to work out if there's any other breeds the same logic could apply to, or whether bull breeds really are that much harder to handle in a scrap. I mean, having seen police dogs in action, I'd hate to be the wrong end of a GSD in a fight, but they've not been banned.