Over pay situation - any advice?

Mumraaa

Hi I just thought I would do a last ditch attempt for my dad at getting any or all of his over-payed money reduced (he works for the council) ...

The situation is basically he was payed for 15 hours instead of 11 but on his wage slip it said he was being paid for 11 hours a week. So he thought all was good. I think he even reduced his hours but was still being paid too much but thought he was having something called protected pay to fill the gap as such. So after 3 years of this going on they finally worked it out and are asking for £4800 all of a sudden. My dad has tried his union and a few other things but basically it has come down to the council judging weather he has to pay it or not which of course meant they have judged that he should pay it. Surely this should be judged by an independent adjudicator or something? As its basically a forgone conclusion this way yes? I realise this is almost over as he is near to paying it but if there is any advice or someone we could speak to etc. please tell me even if its a little help. Thanks allot in advance!

ps hopefully this is the right place to post too :S ...

Southend1

Mumraaa wrote: »

Hi I just thought I would do a last ditch attempt for my dad at getting any or all of his over-payed money reduced (he works for the council) ...

The situation is basically he was payed for 15 hours instead of 11 but on his wage slip it said he was being paid for 11 hours a week. So he thought all was good. I think he even reduced his hours but was still being paid too much but thought he was having something called protected pay to fill the gap as such. So after 3 years of this going on they finally worked it out and are asking for £4800 all of a sudden. My dad has tried his union and a few other things but basically it has come down to the council judging weather he has to pay it or not which of course meant they have judged that he should pay it. Surely this should be judged by an independent adjudicator or something? As its basically a forgone conclusion this way yes? I realise this is almost over as he is near to paying it but if there is any advice or someone we could speak to etc. please tell me even if its a little help. Thanks allot in advance!

ps hopefully this is the right place to post too :S ...

If he owes money and they have asked for it back then he should pay. What you should be negotiating on is the timescale for repayment

agrinnall

I have to agree with Southend1, effectively he's had an interest free loan for several years, and he now needs to repay it over a suitable period of time - given the low number of hours worked I would have though it should be several years.
What you do need to confirm is that the repayment amount is correct, and deals properly with any tax and NI paid already. If the council has provided a statement showing how they've arrived at the figure it may be worth posting the details here so that they can be checked.

Mumraaa

Ok thanks thats what I thought...yes he's semi-retired so yes one day a week now. Just seems a bit unfair if the payslips say 11 hours and he had various other things involved like pay protection I think making it look right...I understand it's law though. Just feel in some situations like this the fault is obviously the council's and so should take some of the hit. As essentially it feels like a sudden loss of money through no fault of his own. He is a little to trusting is true. I personally don't trust anything like this I always check but some things you can't know about and if you checked everything in your life you would be doing it all the time! Just thought there would be a impossible to realise clause our something .

Thanks allot and I'll post the figures maybe but it might be a little complex as I think there were maybe allot of calculations due to his situation.

burnoutbabe

did what his payslip say was net pay agree to what was paid?

or was somehow the hourly rate too high to make it be actually 15 hours? and why on earth would any employer do that and show 11 hours?

If its number 1 that was wrong (he got more in the bank than pay slip said), then yes clear over payment.

But item 2, when it showed 11 hours and he did 11 hours, then its hard to argue he'd have known it was wrong.

zzzLazyDaisy

There is such a thing as the doctrine of estoppel. It is not an easy argument to run, and you may need legal help and assistance.

However, briefly, estoppel may apply to an overpayment where:

• The employer has made a representation of fact which led the employee to believe that he was entitled to treat that money as his own (this would normally be where the employee has queried the amount, and has been assured by the employer that it is the correct amount - but could arguably cover cases where the mistaken overpayment has gone on for a long time and (crucially) the employee could not have been reasonably expected to realise that he was being overpaid)
  
• the employee must, in good faith, have “changed his position”, in other words spent some or all of the money, genuinely believing the wages to have been correctly calculated
  
• the overpayment must not be related to anything that the employee has done (eg giving misleading information or not informing the employer of relevant information)

There is a useful summary here

http://www.birkettlong.co.uk/site/library/legalnews/recovery_of_overpayment_of_wages.html

NOTE: I must stress that this is not an easy argument to run in court, and you will need to be articulate, well prepared and able to think on your feet. Even then, there is certainly no guarantee of success - far from it.

However a well worded letter might provide a negotiation tool for agreeing a reduced repayment figure.

Mumraaa

If only he was an mp Maria Miller:£90000 claimed on a house her parents lived in ordered to pay back £45000 reduced to £5800 by watchdog :O ! Not to mention a mortgage of £525000 raised on the £232000 property...over claimed money : don't worry...over paid work: you need to pay it all back...so corrupt!

Thanks for the help estoppel ah yes that's the one but like you say almost no chance. I'll have a look at his documents but u think it's over anyway and I'm guessing they have done tax ni etc. ...just wish they didn't judge there own mistake is so obvious they going to rule in there favour...imagine that in a court lol the murderer is the jury.

browneyedbazzi

OP- I think you mean Maria Miller. And I don't think we've heard the end of that story yet, she may still get what's coming to her.

Mumraaa

True this time she's up against the press and her own party I suppose I was just talking about how it happens all the time to powerful people we just get to hear about the 1 percent that !!!! off the wrong people. And yes Maria Gah auto correct on my phone ...

Mrs_Ryan

Sorry to hijack the thread but would the doctrine of estoppel also apply where I've believed that my wages were right and been told by payroll they were and they suddenly decide they were wrong and so they've said I will recieve no pay for 2 months? Is there something I can quote to tell them that they have to arrange a payment plan because no wages for two months will leave me in very severe hardship? I know this is common practice for my payroll and someone I work with got solicitors involved when they refused to allow them to pay back in a reasonable manner- I have access to a solicitor through my union but wanted to avoid this if possible. Sorry OP- hope your Dad gets this sorted.

Tiddlywinks

Mumraaa wrote: »

If only he was an mp Maria Miller:£90000 claimed on a house her parents lived in ordered to pay back £45000 reduced to £5800 by watchdog :O ! Not to mention a mortgage of £525000 raised on the £232000 property...over claimed money : don't worry...over paid work: you need to pay it all back...so corrupt!

Thanks for the help estoppel ah yes that's the one but like you say almost no chance. I'll have a look at his documents but u think it's over anyway and I'm guessing they have done tax ni etc. ...just wish they didn't judge there own mistake is so obvious they going to rule in there favour...imagine that in a court lol the murderer is the jury.

The MP's expenses running saga is completely irrelevant to your father's situation... you need to concentrate on his issue and not muddy it in any way.

Did he have a letter / contract showing him his hourly rate? It is reasonable to expect an employee to know this rate.

It is also reasonable to expect an employee to check his payslip to see if things appear to be correct.

So, this is the critical point, how did he fail to identify the overpayment... as in, hourly rate multiplied by 11 hours compared to what he actually received?

Yes, the employer should check BUT there is a shared responsibility... after all, what if it were an underpayment? You'd be expecting reimbursement then, wouldn't you?