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Railway, remote payment, no ticket on car!
KateBrown
Posts: 33 Forumite
Hi,
I searched the forum for something similar but couldnt find anything (I'm sure everyone says that!). The points that make it a bit different are that:
I hope someone can help, I'd really appreciate it. The previous threads have already been very helpful.
I've drafted an appeal letter below, which would be great if someone had time to check? This first part explains the situation:
In January Mr X parked at a railway car park for a few days. Mr X paid for their journey in advance using a popular parking app while at home. The application T&Cs refer to
"Such parking or other vehicle related or road use services will be subject to the terms and restrictions shown on local signage and additionally under the provisions of the Road Traffic Regulations Act 1984, or the Road Traffic Regulations Act 1991 or the Traffic Management Act 2004 and any other relevant legislation as may apply."
However it was not possible for Mr X to inspect these at the time, as Mr X was not at the station, because he does not have access to the internet there (Unfair contract term?).
The signs at the car park were already incorrect -referring to the need to display a ticket at all times. As I'm sure you know, if you pay with the app, you have no ticket to show in your vehicle.
Should I add this point to my appeal?
When Mr X arrived at the station, Mr X found that a large part of the car park was closed off for building works. People had parked all over the place. As Mr X had already paid, and the aforementioned T&Cs would not allow him a refund, Mr X had no choice but to park on a double yellow line. (probably not relevant but there really was nowhere else to park).
A contract had already been entered into, between Mr X and the popular parking app before the terms about not parking in a restricted area could be inspected and agreed to by Mr X.
The next two days were some of the windiest we've had.
When Mr X returned to the car a few days later, there was no ticket.
Recently, a Penalty Notice Reminder from a company landed on the doormat. Their letter was dated 11 days earlier! (where had it been all that time?!). If it was actually issued, it certainly wasn't on the car when Mr X collected it. Perhaps it was stuck down with spit?
They demanded £120 from the registered keeper. The registered keeper had heard nothing of any of this, and requested a picture of the PCN on the car. The company sent a photo of a windscreen with a yellow blob placed somewhere on it. Nothing in the photo was intelligible, and no VRN is visible. They also sent a picture taken from the rear of the registered keeper's car on double yellow lines.
The registered keeper is now going to contest this.
Would anyone be able to check the letter below to suggest if it suitable please?
They've drawn heavily on your suggested templates. To make this easier, I've put their changes in red
Dear <so and so>,
PCN number ????? (no idea what this is, as no one ever got a ticket)
As the registered keeper, I have received your parking invoice which of course, I decline your invitation to pay. I wish to invoke your appeals process, since all liability to your company is denied on the following basis:
1) The amount being claimed is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss to your company or the landowner
2) Your signage does not comply with your ATA Code of Practice and was not sufficiently prominent to create any contract
3) You are not the landowner and do not have the standing to offer contracts nor to bring a claim for trespass
4) The contract for parking was entered into with RingGo parking from a location other than the car park, as allowed by "Poplular App's" terms and conditions, and therefore it was not possible to inspect any local terms, and the terms around restricted areas in the car park are unenforceable under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations (SI 1999/2083) Schedule 2, paragraph 1 .
5) The photograph you have issued of a windscreen with an indistinguishable yellow mark on the windscreen, and no corresponding VRN in the picture is not proof that a ticket was appropriately fixed to my vehicle.
Please issue your standard cancellation letter or a specific, detailed rejection letter. If you choose to send the latter, it must state:
- the legal basis of your charge (i.e. breach, trespass or contractual fee?) as your signage could not be not accepted by the driver at the point of contract and you have not issued a notice that made the basis of the charge clear. As keeper, I cannot be expected to guess the nature of the allegation.
- if alleging breach of contract, with your rejection letter I require a breakdown of the liquidated damages suffered, and by whom, and when this calculation was determined and how this particular 'loss' arose. Please also explain how/why you charge a fixed sum no matter whether the alleged contravention was trivial or more serious and how that can amount to a genuine pre-estimate of loss.
- if alleging trespass please enclose evidence of the perpetrator and proof of the liquidated damages alleged and the calculation of this sum.
- if alleging 'contractual fee' I require that you now send me a VAT invoice by return and explain the daily rate for parking and service provided for the fee. Failure to provide this information and a VAT invoice now that I have requested it, will be considered evidence that this was not in fact a genuine offer to park for a fee and is merely a penalty which is not recoverable in contract law (as found by Mr Recorder Gibson QC, on appeal at Luton County Court in the case of Civil Enforcement v McCafferty 3YK50188 (AP476) 21/2/2014).
Take formal note:
(a) Your unsupported, unsolicited invoice and any further letters if you persist, will constitute harassment. If you continue, your contact and that of any agent will be deemed a 'serious and persistent unwarranted threat' as found by Lord Justice Sedley in Ferguson v British Gas Trading Ltd [2009] EWCA Civ 46 (10 February 2009) and I reserve the right to take the matter further. You have been informed that I consider this to be harassment so any decision to send further letters rather than cancel the invoice will reinforce the evidence of your persistent unwarranted threat and you may be required to justify your actions in court.
(b) Any obfuscation on your part, such as pretending I have to name the driver, alleging I am too late or unable to appeal as keeper or requiring more evidence when clearly I have already set out my full challenge for this stage, will be reported to the DVLA and to your respective ATA, as a sanctionable breach of your Code of Practice.
(c) If you reject my challenge and insist upon taking the matter further I must inform you that I may claim my costs from you and my time at the court rate of £18 per hour. The expenses I may claim are not exhaustive but may include the cost of stamps, envelopes, travel expenses and legal fees as well as liquidated damages for distress arising from harassment.
By continuing to pursue me you hereby accept liability to pay my costs when I prevail and you acknowledge and imply full understanding of the above.
Please issue me with the supposed PCN number and POPLA code,
Yours,
Mr <I actually paid for my parking>
Many thanks again anyone for your help!
I searched the forum for something similar but couldnt find anything (I'm sure everyone says that!). The points that make it a bit different are that:
- Mr X had paid for parking with a mobile app in advance
- He then parked on a double yellow line
- It was a railway car park
I hope someone can help, I'd really appreciate it. The previous threads have already been very helpful.
I've drafted an appeal letter below, which would be great if someone had time to check? This first part explains the situation:
In January Mr X parked at a railway car park for a few days. Mr X paid for their journey in advance using a popular parking app while at home. The application T&Cs refer to
"Such parking or other vehicle related or road use services will be subject to the terms and restrictions shown on local signage and additionally under the provisions of the Road Traffic Regulations Act 1984, or the Road Traffic Regulations Act 1991 or the Traffic Management Act 2004 and any other relevant legislation as may apply."
However it was not possible for Mr X to inspect these at the time, as Mr X was not at the station, because he does not have access to the internet there (Unfair contract term?).
The signs at the car park were already incorrect -referring to the need to display a ticket at all times. As I'm sure you know, if you pay with the app, you have no ticket to show in your vehicle.
Should I add this point to my appeal?
When Mr X arrived at the station, Mr X found that a large part of the car park was closed off for building works. People had parked all over the place. As Mr X had already paid, and the aforementioned T&Cs would not allow him a refund, Mr X had no choice but to park on a double yellow line. (probably not relevant but there really was nowhere else to park).
A contract had already been entered into, between Mr X and the popular parking app before the terms about not parking in a restricted area could be inspected and agreed to by Mr X.
The next two days were some of the windiest we've had.
When Mr X returned to the car a few days later, there was no ticket.
Recently, a Penalty Notice Reminder from a company landed on the doormat. Their letter was dated 11 days earlier! (where had it been all that time?!). If it was actually issued, it certainly wasn't on the car when Mr X collected it. Perhaps it was stuck down with spit?
They demanded £120 from the registered keeper. The registered keeper had heard nothing of any of this, and requested a picture of the PCN on the car. The company sent a photo of a windscreen with a yellow blob placed somewhere on it. Nothing in the photo was intelligible, and no VRN is visible. They also sent a picture taken from the rear of the registered keeper's car on double yellow lines.
The registered keeper is now going to contest this.
Would anyone be able to check the letter below to suggest if it suitable please?
They've drawn heavily on your suggested templates. To make this easier, I've put their changes in red
Dear <so and so>,
PCN number ????? (no idea what this is, as no one ever got a ticket)
As the registered keeper, I have received your parking invoice which of course, I decline your invitation to pay. I wish to invoke your appeals process, since all liability to your company is denied on the following basis:
1) The amount being claimed is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss to your company or the landowner
2) Your signage does not comply with your ATA Code of Practice and was not sufficiently prominent to create any contract
3) You are not the landowner and do not have the standing to offer contracts nor to bring a claim for trespass
4) The contract for parking was entered into with RingGo parking from a location other than the car park, as allowed by "Poplular App's" terms and conditions, and therefore it was not possible to inspect any local terms, and the terms around restricted areas in the car park are unenforceable under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations (SI 1999/2083) Schedule 2, paragraph 1 .
5) The photograph you have issued of a windscreen with an indistinguishable yellow mark on the windscreen, and no corresponding VRN in the picture is not proof that a ticket was appropriately fixed to my vehicle.
Please issue your standard cancellation letter or a specific, detailed rejection letter. If you choose to send the latter, it must state:
- the legal basis of your charge (i.e. breach, trespass or contractual fee?) as your signage could not be not accepted by the driver at the point of contract and you have not issued a notice that made the basis of the charge clear. As keeper, I cannot be expected to guess the nature of the allegation.
- if alleging breach of contract, with your rejection letter I require a breakdown of the liquidated damages suffered, and by whom, and when this calculation was determined and how this particular 'loss' arose. Please also explain how/why you charge a fixed sum no matter whether the alleged contravention was trivial or more serious and how that can amount to a genuine pre-estimate of loss.
- if alleging trespass please enclose evidence of the perpetrator and proof of the liquidated damages alleged and the calculation of this sum.
- if alleging 'contractual fee' I require that you now send me a VAT invoice by return and explain the daily rate for parking and service provided for the fee. Failure to provide this information and a VAT invoice now that I have requested it, will be considered evidence that this was not in fact a genuine offer to park for a fee and is merely a penalty which is not recoverable in contract law (as found by Mr Recorder Gibson QC, on appeal at Luton County Court in the case of Civil Enforcement v McCafferty 3YK50188 (AP476) 21/2/2014).
Take formal note:
(a) Your unsupported, unsolicited invoice and any further letters if you persist, will constitute harassment. If you continue, your contact and that of any agent will be deemed a 'serious and persistent unwarranted threat' as found by Lord Justice Sedley in Ferguson v British Gas Trading Ltd [2009] EWCA Civ 46 (10 February 2009) and I reserve the right to take the matter further. You have been informed that I consider this to be harassment so any decision to send further letters rather than cancel the invoice will reinforce the evidence of your persistent unwarranted threat and you may be required to justify your actions in court.
(b) Any obfuscation on your part, such as pretending I have to name the driver, alleging I am too late or unable to appeal as keeper or requiring more evidence when clearly I have already set out my full challenge for this stage, will be reported to the DVLA and to your respective ATA, as a sanctionable breach of your Code of Practice.
(c) If you reject my challenge and insist upon taking the matter further I must inform you that I may claim my costs from you and my time at the court rate of £18 per hour. The expenses I may claim are not exhaustive but may include the cost of stamps, envelopes, travel expenses and legal fees as well as liquidated damages for distress arising from harassment.
By continuing to pursue me you hereby accept liability to pay my costs when I prevail and you acknowledge and imply full understanding of the above.
Please issue me with the supposed PCN number and POPLA code,
Yours,
Mr <I actually paid for my parking>
Many thanks again anyone for your help!
0
Comments
-
Does the penalty notice reminder not have the reference number on it?
Also, was this in England/Wales?
And, do they quote any bylaws or just refer to the Protection of Freedoms Act?
Is there anyway that you can scan in and upload an image of the notice you received through the post?
This sounds like a Notice to Keeper, which follows 29-56 days after a notice to driver (ticket stuck to vehicle).
Also, I don't think the fact you paid will really help you as you were probably parked in contravention of permission as you parked on yellow lines. But, that's not important, its the pre-estimate of loss which will win out.0 -
Hi,
Thank you for your quick reply,
It has a reference number, but not the PCN number.
The full words are:We have obtained your details from the DVLA as you were the registered keper of the vehicle at the time of the parking event detailed (Restricted Area). A Penalty Notice has been issued because your vehicle was involved in breaching the railway byelaws, which were clearly displayed when your vehicle was parked on land managed by our client CP Plus.
Despite a Penalty Notice having been placed on the screen of your vehicle we have not received payment, The oportunity to pay the reduced amoung has now passed and the full amount is now due. Full payment must be made within 28 days of the date of this letter to avoid further action.
This Penalty Notice has been issued under section 219 of the Transport Act 2000 as amended under the Railways Act 2005. Under the terms of this act, if you fail to pay within the timescales above and park the vehicle upon railway land managed by our client your vehicle may be clamped and/or removed and stored until the outstanding penalty and any costs incurred are paid. Alternatively action through the courts or via a debt collection agency may take place to recover the penalty due and appropriate additional costs.
This Penalty Notice is being adminstered by Parking Collection Services on behalf of our client CP Plus
They're a member of BPA.
I knew learning to touch type would come in handy!
What do you think?0 -
The reference number probably is the PCN number.
This is a bylaw breach. What information do they give you on their appeals process? Do they mention POPLA?0 -
Sorry to ask so many questions, but bylaws are somewhat different to usual private land parking incidents.0
-
They gave no information, other than to say:What if you do not agree
Although any correspondence that does not provide further evidence will be noted and retained, I cannot guarantee that we will reply to it.
Which seems a little unfair!0 -
Yep that letter will be fine for a first appeal.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
C-M, do you think this will work for a bylaw matter as they are not claiming any contractual breach or any keeper liability under POFA?0
-
Well it's fine for this stage, and may get a cancellation or POPLA code which is all good. The byelaws could be thrown in at POPLA stage.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
Coupon-mad wrote: »Well it's fine for this stage, and may get a cancellation or POPLA code which is all good. The byelaws could be thrown in at POPLA stage.
Sorry, I think we're crossing wires, my point is that this is not a standard PCN as it is enforcing a breach of a bylaw rather than a breach of contract etc. The OP has posted that there is no information on appeal. It appears that this may be a Penalty Notice rather than a Parking Notice.0 -
I was sent a penalty notice reminder, not a parking charge.
Do you think i should email and post it then?
Thank you for all your help0
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