Life and Death Row BBC3

Mankysteve

Tropez wrote: »

Fortunately, while we're a member of the EU, capital punishment will never be reintroduced as it breaches the European Convention on Human Rights.

The ECHR has nothing to do with the EU if we leave the EU we shall still be part of the ECHR.

My main reasons for my lack of support for capital punishment is that it has quite the opposite effect on any society its used in. If you compare the US states that allow capital punishment and those that do not the ones that do have much higher crime and murder rates than those that do not.

The second one is that when a state acts in justice it doesn't just do it for the victim it does it for soicty as whole, ie me and you. So when state makes a mistake in justice which does unfortunately as much as we try and avoid it. That mistake is done in all our names, so if we execute someone who hasn't commented a crime it becomes murder so we all responsible for that murder.

Here my d not safe work link about the death penalty but it pretty much sums up my views on the matter, please don't don't watch if your easily offended. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JyJflX_kYE

Mankysteve

Georgiegirl256 wrote: »

I see what you are saying, but for those where there is NO doubt whatsoever that they are guilty. People such as serial killers, kiddy killers etc etc, human rights? Pah! What about the 'human rights' of their victims?

Our justice system is run on the basis that all convicted people are guilty beyond reasonable doubt mistakes are still made.

Society is best judged on how it treats the lowest in it.

fivetide wrote: »

Rehabilitiation, doesn't really work. Punishments, don't really work.

If you knew what little rehabilitation they do in British prisons you'd be horrified. We don't rehabilitation in this country.

If you look at the reoffending rates in countries with proper rehabilitation programs you'd see a much different picture from the failed Uk prison system.

How many of those repeat offenders is due to drug issues from out failed "war of drugs" ? Treating addiction as crime rather than what is a medical issue.

Tropez

Mankysteve wrote: »

The ECHR has nothing to do with the EU if we leave the EU we shall still be part of the ECHR.

Yes, I know but I hadn't had my coffee this morning. I know that the ECHR is CoE and the Charter of Fundamental Rights is the EU equivalent.

fivetide

Mankysteve wrote: »

If you look at the reoffending rates in countries with proper rehabilitation programs you'd see a much different picture from the failed Uk prison system.

How many of those repeat offenders is due to drug issues from out failed "war of drugs" ? Treating addiction as crime rather than what is a medical issue.

Couple of things - the best way out of poverty and to change your place in the world is education. That's pretty much a given around the world (given literacy rates are a key indicator of economic strenght etc).

Now, everyone in the UK has access to a great education. Even those in prison have that chance but they don't take it and then blame others for their own issues (see not being a grass etc or actually working with police/community groups to take pride in their local area.)

Drugs are an issue, and that's sort of what I hinted at in my first post. They won't be helped unless they want to be helped. It is a crime, it isn't a medical issue it is the abject stupidity of these people who make a conscious decision to take drugs in the first place.

What does need solving is why they are daft enough to do it in the first place. That's what we need to tackle. I can't see how classing drug addiction as a disability and paying people to stay out of work for example is a good thing.

Also, none of these sink estates were run down crime hotbeds when they were built. Whilst it is easy to blame the police, government etc, the simple truth is those living there turned them into that sort of place. Another issue that needs tackling.

I think this was better suited to the discussion board mind!

rpc

fivetide wrote: »

Sure?

So prisoners are still locked up 23 hours a day?

They still slop out?

They don't have access to education or training inside?

They don't have TVs and games consoles?

To my mind all of that hasn't helped.

There is a substantial body of evidence to show that good conditions in prison improve overall behaviour. If you force prisoners to live in a sh*thole, there is no incentive to behave well and little punishment for bad behaviour. Even with the niceties, prison is not a pleasant place but those extras make the population manageable.

If you make prisons hard, all you do is make criminals harder. Is that really what we want? Instead of rehabilitation, we should aim to make criminals even worse?

Criminals have rights, like it or not. One of the markers of a just and good society is that you respect that.

Sadly, attitudes like fivetide's are why our system is so bad at rehabilitation. All the focus is on punishment and, while punishment is a necessary part of a sentence, that doesn't rehabilitate.

fivetide

rpc wrote: »

There is a substantial body of evidence to show that good conditions in prison improve overall behaviour. If you force prisoners to live in a sh*thole, there is no incentive to behave well and little punishment for bad behaviour. Even with the niceties, prison is not a pleasant place but those extras make the population manageable.

If you make prisons hard, all you do is make criminals harder. Is that really what we want? Instead of rehabilitation, we should aim to make criminals even worse?

Criminals have rights, like it or not. One of the markers of a just and good society is that you respect that.

Sadly, attitudes like fivetide's are why our system is so bad at rehabilitation. All the focus is on punishment and, while punishment is a necessary part of a sentence, that doesn't rehabilitate.

There is a substantial body of evidence to sugges that despite millions being spent on improving prison conditions. Ensuring that conditions are sometimes, better than people would get at home and a huge push on modernisation with nice new prisons that offending rates have not fallen and hardened offenders do not see prison as punishment at all.

They are all given the opportunities but will not take them. Things haven't changed since Norman Stanley Fletcher was sent down with the words "you are a habitual criminal who accepts arrest as an occupational hazard and presumably accepts imprisonment in the same casual manner"

Sadly it is attitudes like rpc's that have wasted millions of ££££s taxpayer's money treating criminals better than the victims of crime and as I said earlier, failing to tackle the actual causes of that crime in the first place.

indsty

Mimi_Arc_en_ciel wrote: »

Just watching it. I dont agree with the death penalty and think there are other options available - that said, I've never lost someone through murder etc but i can imagine why people agree with it.

What i'm shocked at (Probably not the right word) is how open they are talking to the little girl and telling her whats happening. Surely, at that age, the little girl doesnt need to know these things exist

but thats my opinion.. .

I so agree with you about the way the lady spoke with her little girl (about 6). The lady had been attacked, raped and shot but this had happened about 6 years before her daughter was even born. To discuss with her what "execution" meant and how it was carried out seemed dreadfully excessive to me.

rpc

fivetide wrote: »

There is a substantial body of evidence to sugges that despite millions being spent on improving prison conditions. Ensuring that conditions are sometimes, better than people would get at home and a huge push on modernisation with nice new prisons that offending rates have not fallen and hardened offenders do not see prison as punishment at all.

Improving prison conditions does not rehabilitate. It just makes behaviour more manageable inside. The substantial body of evidence probably shows that the outcome was as expected. Prison is not a deterrent for everyone and never will be (the death penalty isn't either). Prison is a punishment but little else.

You do know that most prison privileges have to be earned and they can be taken away?

Sadly it is attitudes like rpc's that have wasted millions of ££££s taxpayer's money treating criminals better than the victims of crime

And here it becomes clear the argument is based on emotion, not evidence. You can't undo the crime and "an eye for an eye" leaves the whole world blind.

I'll be the first to agree that the victims of crime often don't get treated as they should, but the solution isn't to make things worse for prisoners.

You can objectively punish the offender by removing their liberty and some of their rights (which we do). You could then attempt to rehabilitate them and reduce the chances of reoffending (which we do not do).Prison (as we currently do it) is more likely to turn someone who has wandered off the straight and narrow into a hardened criminal than bring them back to where they should be.