Drawdown charges

zagfles

Following a discussion in another thread and me dropping subtle hints to Snowman about including drawdown charges in his spreadsheet, then him suggesting I compile the data ... I've attempted to do this for all platforms in his spreadsheet (except Fidelity as they require you to take advice or go via their subsiduary and pay unspecified fees).

Being lazy I did look to see if someone had already done it but only found this which seems to be out of date: http://www.ftadviser.com/r/FT%20Publications/FTA/Money%20Management/Assets/Pdf/MON_0713_p061Table2.pdf

I've split the fees into 3 groups - initial, annual and annual when over 75 for both capped and flexible drawdown, and given a summary below. These don't include additional fees such as optional additional GAD calculations, one off payments, setting up additional tranches, death valuations etc. but the full data is at the bottom.

I've assumed that where there's an income change fee, this will apply on any GAD review. Where there's a fee for compulsory GAD reviews I've included a third of it pre 75 and all of it 75+ in the annual charge.

The summarised totals are in the first two quotes below and the full data including other charges are in the last one. The summaries include VAT but the raw data doesn't. Where no charge is specified in the platfom's fee list I've usually assumed zero, though for things like in-specie withdrawals I guess some platforms don't offer it.

Note these are only fees specifically related to drawdown, they don't include SIPP annual management fees, fund fees etc.

Obviously don't rely on this, check on the provider's website for full details of charges. There are bound to be some mistakes...let me know if you spot any.

Sorry about the formatting but hopefully Snowman can incorporate it into his spreadsheet to make it easier to view. If anyone knows how to post tables readably please feel free!

You should be able to copy and paste into a text/csv document and import into a spreadsheet so you can view it properly (in Excel go into Data/From Text).

Capped drawdown - these fees include VAT:

Platform, Initial charge, Annual charge under 75, Annual charge 75+

Alliance Trust Savings, 240, 90, 90
Youinvest, 180, 120, 120
Charles Stanley, 0, 104, 192
TD Direct, 0, 180, 300
Interactive Investor, 180, 210, 420
iWeb, 0, 180, 300
Halifax Sharedealing, 0, 180, 300
Trustnet Direct, 180, 210, 420
Barclays Bank, 90, 150, 210
Best Invest, 0, 170, 270
Hargreaves Lansdown, 0, 34, 102

Flexible drawdown, including VAT:

Platform, Initial charge, Annual charge under 75, Annual charge 75+

Alliance Trust Savings, 300, 90, 90
Youinvest, 180, 120, 120
Charles Stanley, 300, 60, 60
TD Direct, 90, 180, 300
Interactive Investor, 180, 150, 240
iWeb, 0, 180, 300
Halifax Sharedealing, 90, 180, 300
Trustnet Direct, 180, 150, 240
Barclays Bank, 90, 120, 120
Best Invest, 180, 120, 120
Hargreaves Lansdown, 354, 0, 0

Raw data - full list of charges - note these fees do not include VAT:

Platform, setup capped, additional tranche capped, setup flexible, annual capped charge, annual flexible charge, annual charge 75+, income payment, income payment 75+, change income amount, tfls cash, tfls inspecie, triviality payment, annuity purchase external, death valuation, Compulsory GAD review, Non complsory GAD review, One off income payment

Alliance Trust Savings, 200, 75, 250, 75, 75, 75, 0, 0, 0, 0, 15, 100, 150, 200, 0, 0?, 0
Youinvest, 150, 150, 150, 100, 100, 100, 0, 0, 0, 0, ?, ?, 150, 250+, 0, 75, 25
Charles Stanley, 0, 0, 250, 0, 0, 0, 50, 50, 10, 0, ?, 150, 150, timecost, 100, 100, 25
TD Direct, 0, 75, 75, 150, 150, 250, 0, 0, 0, 0, ?, 75, 75, timecost(350), 0, 0, 0
Interactive Investor, 150, 150, 150, 0, 0, 0, 125, 200, 0, 0, ?, 0?, 75, ?, 150, 150, 0
iWeb, 0, 75, 0, 150, 150, 250, 0, 0, 0, 0, ?, ?, 75, ?, 0, 0?, 0
Halifax Sharedealing, 0, 75, 75, 150, 150, 250, 0, 0, 0, 0, ?, 75, 75, timecost, 0, 0?, 0
Trustnet Direct, 150, 150, 150, 0, 0, 0, 125, 200, 0, 0, ?, ?, 75, ?, 150, 150, 0
Barclays Bank, 75, 75, 75, 100, 100, 100, 0, 0, 0, 0, ?, 75, 75, timecost, 75, 75, 0
Best Invest, 0, 0, 150, 0, 0, 0, 100, 100, 25, 0, ?, 150, 150, timecost, 100, 100, 25
Hargreaves Lansdown, 0, 0, 295, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 10, 0, ?, 75, 150, 295, 75, 75, 25

zagfles

Sorry the formatting got totally screwed - it looked fine before I posted... will try to sort.

mania112

Shouldn't it be considered an oversight not to include provider fees? You can't be in Drawdown without paying the provider too.

SnowMan

:T:beer: Well done for doing this Zagles

It is difficult to get tables to format on the forum.

is it worth setting up a simple spreadsheet and using one of the cloud storage options (google drive, sky drive etc) to link to the spreadsheet from your first post?

zagfles

mania112 wrote: »

Shouldn't it be considered an oversight not to include provider fees? You can't be in Drawdown without paying the provider too.

Snowman's spreadsheet already includes those.

zagfles

SnowMan wrote: »

:T:beer: Well done for doing this Zagles

It is difficult to get tables to format on the forum.

is it worth setting up a simple spreadsheet and using one of the cloud storage options (google drive, sky drive etc) to link to the spreadsheet from your first post?

Thanks!

I've editted my OP to put it all in csv format, so should be able to copy and paste the entire quoted bits into a text document and then import into a spreadsheet (in Excel it's Data/From Text and specify comma delimited, sure open office has a similar option).

SnowMan

zagfles wrote: »

Sorry about the formatting but hopefully Snowman can incorporate it into his spreadsheet to make it easier to view. If anyone knows how to post tables readably please feel free!

I've just put the drawdown figures in a stand alone spreadsheet at the moment. I've added VAT into the before VAT figures.

Let me know what you think, or feel free to download and amend etc.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxA6Przq6KI1UFRqZW5NUHBzY0k/edit?usp=sharing

I can convert it into a google spreadsheet (which would enable editing on-line) but there doesn't seem to be an option to get the text to show vertically so that is annoying.

zagfles

SnowMan wrote: »

I've just put the drawdown figures in a stand alone spreadsheet at the moment. I've added VAT into the before VAT figures.

Let me know what you think, or feel free to download and amend etc.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxA6Przq6KI1UFRqZW5NUHBzY0k/edit?usp=sharing

I can convert it into a google spreadsheet (which would enable editing on-line) but there doesn't seem to be an option to get the text to show vertically so that is annoying.

Excellent - looks good!

Trying to figure out the best way to incorporate it into your main spreadsheet - I'm sure there's an option to include a dropdown list in Excel but I can't find it... if it is there then have a dropdown called "Include drawdown charges?" with options:

No
Capped - under 75
Capped - 75+
Flexible - under 75
Flexible 75+

Then add the appropriate annual charge to the "Total platform charges pa" column and maybe have another column for "drawdown setup charge".

But this is getting beyond my knowledge of excel as it involves stuff like conditionals and drop down lists...the other option would be to have lots of extra columns but that would be messy...

mania112

Out of interest can anything beat 0.35% + £100 per year for capped drawdown (including provider and fund)?

SnowMan

Zagfles, I think there are as you say a number of ways of incorporating the figures in the platform comparison spreadsheet. We can discuss what we think is best.

At the moment I am trying to understand the figures, in the sense of what charges would actually be incurred by someone who chose say capped drawdown, and what scenarios and events would trigger the various charges in the table. Partly due to my complete ignorance of charging structures for drawdown and some of the more practical issues.

I am thinking we can lose some of the full list of charges columns, and make those additional charges over the main capped and flexible charges?

So we can lose the 'set up capped' and 'set up flexible' columns? Although worth renaming columns 1 and 4 from 'initial' to 'set-up'?

I am not quite sure what the difference is between the 'annual capped charge' and 'annual flexible charge' in the 'full list of charges' and the 'annual charge under 75' in the 'capped drawdown' and 'flexible drawdown' columns. Which other charges make up the difference?

I am also confused with where in the numbers you have incorporating the 1/3rd of the compulsory GAD charge (pre 75)? Can you give me an example of where it is incorporated?

And why is there only one 'annual charge 75+' column in the 'full list of charges' columns and yet amounts after 75 seem to vary depending on whether the drawdown is capped or flexible (looking at columns 3 and 6).

And I am struggling to interpret what charges apply if drawdown is taken through a tax free lump sum (but with no income) vs drawdown with a lump sum and income payments. In which figures are the 'income payments' included?


I wonder if it is worth putting in some links to general information about what drawdown is into your first post. There are probably readers who don't understand the difference between capped and flexible drawdown and won't understand that for capped drawdown there are Government Actuary Department limits to ensure that capital isn't eroded, and the 3 yearly (or yearly) need to review the upper withdrawal limit.

Thanks again for your work on this I am sure forumites are going to find this useful :T

You can probably tell from my silly questions why I didn't try to undertake this task myself.

SallyG

Thank you Thank you Thank you - just look at them synapses spark!