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Peel Car Park/POPLA Advice required please
Frugle_Expert
Posts: 3 Newbie
[FONT="]I am writing this on behalf of my daughter, she received a PCN on Peel car park in Stockport from Excel. She wrote to Excel appealing against the notice, this was refused and she then appealed through the POPLA website as below:[/FONT]
[FONT="]I attempted to pay the parking charges, the first machine I went to was out of order with a bag over the top, I then went to a further two more machines both of which were out of order and covered with bags, there were no notices on any of the out of order machines indicating where any working machines were situated, from the area I was in, I could not see any further machines to try. I was in the car park for less than two hours, the fine is for 60.00 which is an outrageous penalty given that tall the machines I tried were out of order. The letter states that there are 14 pay stations but does not state where any of the working machines were situated. The car par is enormous, so it is not acceptable that you could spend half an hour looking for a pay station – with the possibility that they were all out of order – in which time I still could have received a penalty notice. If the car park company cannot provide working pay machines they have no right to be issuing penalty notices.[/FONT]
[FONT="]The next communication she received from POPLA was on the 3rd March in the form of a Zip file which she could not open on her laptop, I opened it on mine and retrieved seven folders each containing PDF files which were generic photographs of what is probably Peel car park, also there were PDF copies of my daughters letters to Excel contesting the amount of 60.00 and its being a disproportionate amount, the only relevant information to the PCN were the photographs of my daughter entering and leaving the car park, she was in there for 57 mins. There was no accompanying letter with these files, no explanation as to their relevance and nothing to suggest there was a deadline for a reply. The next communication from POPLA arrived as below:[/FONT]
[FONT="]PARKING ON PRIVATE LAND APPEALS PO Box 70748 London EC1P 1SN 0845 207 7700 [/FONT][FONT="]enquiries@popla.org.uk [/FONT]
[FONT="]10 March 2014 [/FONT]
[FONT="] Reference: ********* always quote in any communication with POPLA[/FONT]
[FONT="]**** **** (Appellant) -v- Excel Parking Services Limited (Operator)[/FONT]
[FONT="]The Operator issued parking charge notice number ***** arising out of the presence at Peel Centre Stockport, on 5 December 2013, of a vehicle with registration mark *******. The Appellant appealed against liability for the parking charge.[/FONT]
[FONT="]The Assessor considered the evidence of both parties and determined that the appeal be refused. The Assessor’s reasons are as set out. In order to avoid any further action by the operator, payment of the £100 parking charge should be made within 14 days. Details of how to pay will appear on previous correspondence from the operator.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Reasons for the Assessor’s Determination It is the Operator’s case that a parking charge notice was correctly issued, giving the reason as: ‘Parked without displaying a valid ticket/ permit’. The Operator submits that a parking charge is now due in accordance with the clearly displayed terms of parking. The Appellant does not dispute that the terms of parking were clearly displayed, or that she failed to display a valid ticket. It is the Appellant’s case that she could not purchase a ticket as the machines on site were not working. The Appellant submits that three separate machines were not working. The Operator submits that there were further, working machines at the site, and so the Appellant ought to have obtained a ticket. Furthermore, the Operator submits that the terms of parking included a helpline telephone number which the Appellant ought to have telephoned. The Operator’s evidence shows that there were two working machines in the zone of the car park in which the Appellant parked. Furthermore, its signs are clear that if a machine is not working, another machine ought to be found, and the helpline number telephoned. Whilst I sympathise with the Appellant, I am not able to take into account mitigating circumstances. That an Appellant feels he or she had good reason for failing to comply with the terms of parking is not a reason for which I can allow an appeal. When parking on private land, a motorist freely enters into an agreement to abide by the conditions of parking in return for permission to park. It is the motorist’s responsibility to ensure that he or she abides by any clearly displayed conditions of parking. The Appellant does not dispute that further, working, machines were present at the site, or that she failed to telephone the helpline advertised. I find that, by failing to display a valid ticket, the Appellant became liable for a parking charge notice, in accordance with the terms of parking displayed. Accordingly, I must refuse the appeal. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Chris Adamson Assessor[/FONT]
[FONT="]As you can see this is dated seven days after them sending the ‘Evidence’ although the email date shows the 14th. I was not expecting another reply so quickly and had not composed a query/reply to their communication entitled ‘Evidence’ I therefore immediately sent the reply to them as below using the template from this thread but rejigging the wording at the beginning:[/FONT]
[FONT="]Dear POPLA adjudicator,
I am writing to appeal against a parking charge ********* levied by Excel Parking Services Ltd on 05/12/2013. I am the registered keeper of the vehicle concerned.
Please find further grounds towards my appeal number *********, I was going to reply to you previous communication which you sent to me on 03/03/2014 but you have sent your decision in quick succession.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Their reply to the above communication came within hours as below, I am at a loss as to what to do next, POPLA it would seem are as shady as EXCEL[/FONT]
[FONT="]FROM [/FONT][FONT="]enquiries@popla.org.uk[/FONT]
[FONT="]To Me [/FONT]
[FONT="]Mar 14 at 3:00 PM [/FONT]
[FONT="]Thank you for your email about the Assessor’s decision in the above matter.[/FONT]
[FONT="]All cases are considered with the evidence submitted by the appellant and the parking operator and an Assessor will not obtain evidence or contact witnesses on either party’s behalf. The Assessor then has to apply the relevant law to these findings of fact. Each case is considered independently. At this late stage no further evidence can be considered.[/FONT]
[FONT="]I have to tell you that the Assessor’s decision is final.[/FONT]
[FONT="]In order to avoid any further action by the operator, payment of any amounts owed should now be made without delay. Details of how to pay will appear on previous correspondence from the operator. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Should you wish to take the matter further, your next course of action would be to seek independent legal advice.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Kind regards[/FONT]
[FONT="]POPLA Administration Team :mad::mad:
[/FONT]
[FONT="]I attempted to pay the parking charges, the first machine I went to was out of order with a bag over the top, I then went to a further two more machines both of which were out of order and covered with bags, there were no notices on any of the out of order machines indicating where any working machines were situated, from the area I was in, I could not see any further machines to try. I was in the car park for less than two hours, the fine is for 60.00 which is an outrageous penalty given that tall the machines I tried were out of order. The letter states that there are 14 pay stations but does not state where any of the working machines were situated. The car par is enormous, so it is not acceptable that you could spend half an hour looking for a pay station – with the possibility that they were all out of order – in which time I still could have received a penalty notice. If the car park company cannot provide working pay machines they have no right to be issuing penalty notices.[/FONT]
[FONT="]The next communication she received from POPLA was on the 3rd March in the form of a Zip file which she could not open on her laptop, I opened it on mine and retrieved seven folders each containing PDF files which were generic photographs of what is probably Peel car park, also there were PDF copies of my daughters letters to Excel contesting the amount of 60.00 and its being a disproportionate amount, the only relevant information to the PCN were the photographs of my daughter entering and leaving the car park, she was in there for 57 mins. There was no accompanying letter with these files, no explanation as to their relevance and nothing to suggest there was a deadline for a reply. The next communication from POPLA arrived as below:[/FONT]
[FONT="]PARKING ON PRIVATE LAND APPEALS PO Box 70748 London EC1P 1SN 0845 207 7700 [/FONT][FONT="]enquiries@popla.org.uk [/FONT]
[FONT="]10 March 2014 [/FONT]
[FONT="] Reference: ********* always quote in any communication with POPLA[/FONT]
[FONT="]**** **** (Appellant) -v- Excel Parking Services Limited (Operator)[/FONT]
[FONT="]The Operator issued parking charge notice number ***** arising out of the presence at Peel Centre Stockport, on 5 December 2013, of a vehicle with registration mark *******. The Appellant appealed against liability for the parking charge.[/FONT]
[FONT="]The Assessor considered the evidence of both parties and determined that the appeal be refused. The Assessor’s reasons are as set out. In order to avoid any further action by the operator, payment of the £100 parking charge should be made within 14 days. Details of how to pay will appear on previous correspondence from the operator.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Reasons for the Assessor’s Determination It is the Operator’s case that a parking charge notice was correctly issued, giving the reason as: ‘Parked without displaying a valid ticket/ permit’. The Operator submits that a parking charge is now due in accordance with the clearly displayed terms of parking. The Appellant does not dispute that the terms of parking were clearly displayed, or that she failed to display a valid ticket. It is the Appellant’s case that she could not purchase a ticket as the machines on site were not working. The Appellant submits that three separate machines were not working. The Operator submits that there were further, working machines at the site, and so the Appellant ought to have obtained a ticket. Furthermore, the Operator submits that the terms of parking included a helpline telephone number which the Appellant ought to have telephoned. The Operator’s evidence shows that there were two working machines in the zone of the car park in which the Appellant parked. Furthermore, its signs are clear that if a machine is not working, another machine ought to be found, and the helpline number telephoned. Whilst I sympathise with the Appellant, I am not able to take into account mitigating circumstances. That an Appellant feels he or she had good reason for failing to comply with the terms of parking is not a reason for which I can allow an appeal. When parking on private land, a motorist freely enters into an agreement to abide by the conditions of parking in return for permission to park. It is the motorist’s responsibility to ensure that he or she abides by any clearly displayed conditions of parking. The Appellant does not dispute that further, working, machines were present at the site, or that she failed to telephone the helpline advertised. I find that, by failing to display a valid ticket, the Appellant became liable for a parking charge notice, in accordance with the terms of parking displayed. Accordingly, I must refuse the appeal. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Chris Adamson Assessor[/FONT]
[FONT="]As you can see this is dated seven days after them sending the ‘Evidence’ although the email date shows the 14th. I was not expecting another reply so quickly and had not composed a query/reply to their communication entitled ‘Evidence’ I therefore immediately sent the reply to them as below using the template from this thread but rejigging the wording at the beginning:[/FONT]
[FONT="]Dear POPLA adjudicator,
I am writing to appeal against a parking charge ********* levied by Excel Parking Services Ltd on 05/12/2013. I am the registered keeper of the vehicle concerned.
Please find further grounds towards my appeal number *********, I was going to reply to you previous communication which you sent to me on 03/03/2014 but you have sent your decision in quick succession.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Their reply to the above communication came within hours as below, I am at a loss as to what to do next, POPLA it would seem are as shady as EXCEL[/FONT]
[FONT="]FROM [/FONT][FONT="]enquiries@popla.org.uk[/FONT]
[FONT="]To Me [/FONT]
[FONT="]Mar 14 at 3:00 PM [/FONT]
[FONT="]Thank you for your email about the Assessor’s decision in the above matter.[/FONT]
[FONT="]All cases are considered with the evidence submitted by the appellant and the parking operator and an Assessor will not obtain evidence or contact witnesses on either party’s behalf. The Assessor then has to apply the relevant law to these findings of fact. Each case is considered independently. At this late stage no further evidence can be considered.[/FONT]
[FONT="]I have to tell you that the Assessor’s decision is final.[/FONT]
[FONT="]In order to avoid any further action by the operator, payment of any amounts owed should now be made without delay. Details of how to pay will appear on previous correspondence from the operator. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Should you wish to take the matter further, your next course of action would be to seek independent legal advice.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Kind regards[/FONT]
[FONT="]POPLA Administration Team :mad::mad:
[/FONT]
0
Comments
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OK.
What has happened, briefly, is that you have wasted your POPLA appeal through inexperience and lack of knowledge because you put in a mitigation appeal and POPLA don't do mitigation.
The Parking industry - of which POPLA is part - has very clear self-preserving views that if you don't follow their rules, you are guilty as charged. And they don't care what excuse or reason you give.
So, did you pay? No. Therefore you broke their t&c so you need to pay. Well, according to them not us!!
Had you come to us initially we could have given you a POPLAappeal which, on current form, would have guaranteed you a win.
However, that opportunity has gone. So the next stage is this
1. You pay
2. You do nothing and hope it all goes away and it might.
3. You get a load of letters from debt collectors and solicitors that are worthless and meaningless (but should be retained) until you get a claim from Northampton Court, then you come to us again.
Remember that CCJs etc will not apply until after you lose a case in court and then don't pay the amount awarded. And no one will knock on your door.
Read the sticky NEWBIES thread at the top of the forum and then search the forum for PEEL, but only for threads posted in the last 4 months.0 -
just so you are clear on what the correct type of popla appeal is in order to win at popla , read this
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4836836 post #20 which was written 2 months ago for somebody else caught in the same "trap" that is the peel centre
and one like yours https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/48673720 -
just so you are clear on what the correct type of popla appeal is in order to win at popla , read this
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4836836 post #20 which was written 2 months ago for somebody else caught in the same "trap" that is the peel centre
and one like yours https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4867372
Just beat me to it, Redx. Was about to do the same :beer:0 -
that car park is nor far from me and is a PITA and a cash cow trap so I tend to take an interest in it when it appears on here (or staples across the road)
clearly this case could be won in court on the usual suspects which are the ones that should have been additionally submitted in the popla appeal but werent , which is why that experienced assessor didnt assess them
ie:
not a genuine pre estimate of loss
no contract (no standing = no locus) - so no landowner contract
poor signage , although its been changed at least twice since the martin cutts court case in 2011
the point we are making here frugle, is that the popla appeals for the peel centre have to be worded correctly, and there are dozens of good examples on here that have won, it appears weekly on this forum so its a well trodden path, unfortunately you didnt come here for that advice in the first place as it was easily won at popla if you had done so
put the search word PEEL or STOCKPORT into the forum search box and dozens of threads turn up0 -
What a shocking, disappointing waste of a POPLA appeal, when a simple forum search of the word 'Peel' would have made you as bored of reading threads about that car park as we are. The stupid place is mentioned every day and there must be dozens of POPLA appeal examples you could have found, to win easily. What a crying shame - when they send a small claim, please at least research how to defend it better than the POPLA appeal.
Really sad to read such a waste of the golden ticket of POPLA.
The next communication she received from POPLA was on the 3rd March in the form of a Zip file which she could not open on her laptop
Have a closer look - that wasn't even from POPLA - just because the front page was a POPLA evidence cover sheet doesn't make it 'from POPLA'. It was Excel's evidence pack (from Excel) which she'd also have known...if she'd briefly researched what to do she'd have won with a template POPLA appeal, already written here umpteen zillion times. Even if your daughter was not on a forum, she'd have known not to write about the mitigating circumstances if she'd just simply read even briefly, what it says on the POPLA website. They do state that they 'can't consider mitigation' and your daughter sent 'mitigation'.
Oh dear. Small claims court next then.
You will now need forum help to defend this in court and I bet she folds and pays now even though everyone else here wins at POPLA (and defending in Court is winnable too). She'll get a threatogram from Excel and she'll probably pay up won't she? If she's made of sterner stuff than that please ask her to post here and we'll help with her defence. The last person I helped with a court defence v Excel won last October (Excel v Greenwood, a disabled chap in a disabled bay, who had also thrown away the POPLA golden ticket with a naïve letter).PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
excel are scum,total scum,similar posts to op have been posted on this forum recently,do not pay them a penny,and hope it does go to court,and you can tell the judge this,,dead simple,,,your honour the scum known as excell took the trouble to put bags over the broken machines,,but WHY your honour did they not put a note on to say,,,the nearest working machine is situated etc etc etc,,,,answer your honour,,because they are a bunch of scammers and at the end of the day i bet the machines were in fact all working perfectly well,just another ploy from excell to relieve us of our hard earned cash,,so excell answer that,,you monitor this forum daily,cowards that you are,it was a sting,nout else,,now tell the judge,,good luck.0
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Thank you so much for all your advice, I have passed all this on and advised my daughter not to pay, she is happy to do this. I did not consider that having no where to pay as a mitigating circumstance, being told that there is a phone number to contact EXCEL on the signage is not much use without a phone. However I do concede that POPLA have refused the appeal and will give full attention to any future actions.0
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Great, glad you are both up for fighting this as it CAN be won at small claims and only risks an extra £75 or so if she loses in the end (the small claims fees would be payable too, that's all). There would be no CCJ nor effect on credit rating - if she loses, she then pays - but these can be won by defendants so it is worth fighting.
Next step might be a Letter before Claim (in which case she needs to read the 'LBCCC Fightback' sticky thread (linked by Crabman in the sticky thread at the top of this forum). A LBC should be acknowledged and then formally responded to, in the way explained by retired Solicitor zzzLazyDaisy in her sticky thread.
Or actual Northampton Small Claims paperwork will arrive, in which case there's a month deadline to get the claim acknowledged and then a defence submitted. I would happily help with defence wording if it happens. Can you let us know your nearest County Court as well, in case a local pepipoo forum poster can help a bit more?PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
think its either stockport or manchester for the peel centre in stockport0
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