Are home owners happy that prices rise and price out young

CLAPTON

Jason74 wrote: »

The social contract is basically the set of rights and obligations between society / the state and individuals within it. Some of it is codified in law, IE "you pay the Government taxes, and the Government provides police, schools hospitals etc". Some of it though is more subtle than that (think explicit and implied terms in a standard legal contract).

The idea that people who 'work hard and play by the rules' will be able to afford decent housing with security of tenure is imho one of those 'implied terms', and at the moment, that part of the bargain is being broken in much of the country. It doesn't mean anybody 'confiscating' anything, and yes, building more properties is probably the biggest (albeit not the only) part of the solution to this particular problem

when did this social contract ever exist : certainly not at anytime in the last 10,000 years?

does this social contract exist is other counties?
is all counties?
in Africa?

or is a unique contract that has suddenly emerged in the UK only in the last year or so?

if the contract ever existed and is now broken then the 'evil' people are those that sell their houses at too high a price; probably friends of yours.

GeorgeHowell

One of the problems is that in this country those who do not play by the rules -- work hard etc -- are better looked after in terms of housing than many of those who do. And it's all paid for those who do. The government tried to make a small dent in it by withdrawing a portion of housing benefit for people with bigger taxpayer-funded homes than they need. So the Labour Party (the party of non-working people), aided and abetted as always by the BBC, labelled it the "Bedroom Tax" and tried to make the rest of us feel guilty.

BillJones

CLAPTON wrote: »

when did this social contract ever exist : certainly not at anytime in the last 10,000 years?

does this social contract exist is other counties?
is all counties?
in Africa?

or is a unique contract that has suddenly emerged in the UK only in the last year or so?

if the contract ever existed and is now broken then the 'evil' people are those that sell their houses at too high a price; probably friends of yours.

Yes, it has likely always existed. It's not a written contract, it is a set of rules that society follows about how you are allowed to act, and how you can expect others to act towards you. It exists even in the animal kingdom, where tribal creatures will shun or punish members of the troop, pride or whatever, who exhibit some behaviours which are negative to the group.

CLAPTON

BillJones wrote: »

Yes, it has likely always existed. It's not a written contract, it is a set of rules that society follows about how you are allowed to act, and how you can expect others to act towards you. It exists even in the animal kingdom, where tribal creatures will shun or punish members of the troop, pride or whatever, who exhibit some behaviours which are negative to the group.

are you seriously saying that we have had such a social contract in the field of housing (i.e. providing quality, secure, affordable housing for all) over the last 1000 years or so but it has now suddenly been broken?

Seabee42

BillJones wrote: »

Yes, it has likely always existed. It's not a written contract, it is a set of rules that society follows about how you are allowed to act, and how you can expect others to act towards you. It exists even in the animal kingdom, where tribal creatures will shun or punish members of the troop, pride or whatever, who exhibit some behaviours which are negative to the group.

I think such a contract sort of works in small communities i.e. everyone knows the local thief etc in this country I would suggest its rare if not extinct after all what social links do you have in most cities where communities do not mix.

BillJones

CLAPTON wrote: »

are you seriously saying that we have had such a social contract in the field of housing (i.e. providing quality, secure, affordable housing for all) over the last 1000 years or so but it has now suddenly been broken?

No. How could you possibly infer that from what I wrote?

CLAPTON

BillJones wrote: »

No. How could you possibly infer that from what I wrote?

because that was the what the conversation was about :

that is

Originally Posted by Jason74
The social contract is basically the set of rights and obligations between society / the state and individuals within it. Some of it is codified in law, IE "you pay the Government taxes, and the Government provides police, schools hospitals etc". Some of it though is more subtle than that (think explicit and implied terms in a standard legal contract).

The idea that people who 'work hard and play by the rules' will be able to afford decent housing with security of tenure is imho one of those 'implied terms', and at the moment, that part of the bargain is being broken in much of the country. It doesn't mean anybody 'confiscating' anything, and yes, building more properties is probably the biggest (albeit not the only) part of the solution to this particular problem

we seem to agree that such a social contract has never existed in the UK

Jason74

CLAPTON wrote: »

when did this social contract ever exist : certainly not at anytime in the last 10,000 years?

does this social contract exist is other counties?
is all counties?
in Africa?

or is a unique contract that has suddenly merged in the UK only in the last year or so?

if the contract ever existed and is now broken then the 'evil' people are those that sell their houses at too high a price; probably friends of yours.

The idea of a social contract certainly isn't something that has "suddenly emerged in the UK only in the last year or so". The principle is pushing 400 years old at least, and was an important part of the development of "modern" polticial theory / philosophy through the age of enlightenment. The link below might be of use here, and mentions some of the principle thinkers behind this idea (Hobbes and Rousseau are particularly important within this):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract

Of course, the exact nature of what the "contract" entails is not always clearly defined, and shifts over time. Many issues that would now be considered key parts of that social contract would not have even been thought of by enlightenment age thinkers. However, it is widely recognised that the principle of a social contract is something that underpins most modern democracies.

What does that mean in the modern UK context ?. Well that to an extent is a matter of opinion of course. For me though, the "state / society" of the bargain is largely about security (defence, law and order etc.). I personally would also suggest that the eradication of Beveridge's "five giant evils" (Squalor, Ignorance, Want, Idleness, Disease) makes up a good part of the obligations of society gtowards all citizens .Indeed, it's remarkable how relevant those five evils still are 70 odd years after the report.

To bring this back to housing, provision of good quality secure housing for all is important in dealing with two, and possibly three of these "evils", hence why in the context of modern Britain, decent, secure housing very much is a key part of the social contract. It's also clear that the UK is currently failing in this rehgard. The irony here of course is that I actually agree with you that one of the most productive ways of addressing this is to get building.

CLAPTON

Jason74 wrote: »

The idea of a social contract certainly isn't something that has "suddenly emerged in the UK only in the last year or so". The principle is pushing 400 years old at least, and was an important part of the development of "modern" polticial theory / philosophy through the age of enlightenment. The link below might be of use here, and mentions some of the principle thinkers behind this idea (Hobbes and Rousseau are particularly important within this):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract

Of course, the exact nature of what the "contract" entails is not always clearly defined, and shifts over time. Many issues that would now be considered key parts of that social contract would not have even been thought of by enlightenment age thinkers. However, it is widely recognised that the principle of a social contract is something that underpins most modern democracies.

What does that mean in the modern UK context ?. Well that to an extent is a matter of opinion of course. For me though, the "state / society" of the bargain is largely about security (defence, law and order etc.). I personally would also suggest that the eradication of Beveridge's "five giant evils" (Squalor, Ignorance, Want, Idleness, Disease) makes up a good part of the obligations of society gtowards all citizens .Indeed, it's remarkable how relevant those five evils still are 70 odd years after the report.

To bring this back to housing, provision of good quality secure housing for all is important in dealing with two, and possibly three of these "evils", hence why in the context of modern Britain, decent, secure housing very much is a key part of the social contract. It's also clear that the UK is currently failing in this rehgard. The irony here of course is that I actually agree with you that one of the most productive ways of addressing this is to get building.

no irony about understanding we have a simple easy-to-solve-problem : build more housing

we don't been a problem of a wishy washy hard-to-define and even harder to get agreement about, social contract

BillJones

CLAPTON wrote: »

we seem to agree that such a social contract has never existed in the UK

No, we don't. Please do stop implying that I believe things that I don't, or that I've written things that I haven't. It is the debating style of a five year-old, barely above "I know you are but what am I".