non adopted/private road problem

princeofpounds

[Edit to add: I think I have used some of the wrong terminology below. Adoption is actually about maintenance of roads. But I think the key difference here is about private roads vs private streets eg http://www.kent.gov.uk/roads_and_transport/highway_maintenance/road_status/private_streets.aspx]

Most of the answers you seek are above, but a summary may be useful:

Planning permission relates only to whether the gate meets planning policies. It does not tell you what use you can make of the road.

You can put a gate in your own fence, subject to planning. But if your neighbour doesn't like it then they can put a fence of their own up to block access, so it doesn't mean much.

Whether you have access to the road is more complex.

It depends on whether it is truly private land or adopted. The deeds on the land registry for your house, your neighbours' houses, and the road itself if you can find them will probably reveal its status and any rights people may have over it.

The council will be able to tell you if the road is adopted by them.

There may also be an intermediate state where the road has not actually be kept private (by annual closing) but is not formally adopted yet. That can get a bit legal if you want to force anything, doubt it would be worth it.

As suggested, there may be an interim strip of land between your boundary and the road to consider too. Your title plan will probably give you a good idea of that.

The fact that the neighbour maintains the road may give you a clue as to who has access rights, but it doesn't actually mean anything in itself.

Finally, remember that ultimately there is a question of good neighbourlyness too....

Johnhowell

mbenno,




Have you looked at you deeds? Do you have a right to pass over the roadway by foot, cart or vehicle?


It should be noted that the Land Registry electronic copy may not have copied the original paper deeds in this respect. Have you the original deeds?


Let us assume you do not have a stated right.
Option 1 - the roadway is Public Highway (Freehold, adopted or dedicated) - you can access it from you property. Planning Permission will be required to have the gate opening to the Highway. The Highway Authority has to maintain a list of their maintainable highways. The Authority maybe the Borough, City, District or County council. Ask for the Highway Records department.


Option 2 - it is a private road. No, a sign does not have to state this. The properties on this roadway will have such rights stated on their deeds - again may not be on the electronic copy. These property owners may have a charge to maintain the roadway in their deeds. They may not own it per se, ownership has been lost in the passage of time, and each frontage is "deemed" as owner to the centre of the track immediately to the front.


All the best,
John

agrinnall

princeofpounds wrote: »

You can put a gate in your own fence, subject to planning. But if your neighbour doesn't like it then they can put a fence of their own up to block access, so it doesn't mean much.

Do you really need planning permission to put a gate in your own fence? It seems unlikely to me, but if you do, does it matter whether the gate opens inwards (onto your own property) or outwards (onto someone else's)?

G_M

1) check the Title deeds to your property here.

2) do a 'map search' and check the Title of the road for who owns it here.

mbenno

have done that - our title deeds only state that the drive is non adopted.
the drive doesn't have a separate name, their addresses are the same road as ours (hope that makes sense).

kipperkendall

Contact the local councils rights of way department. They have access to all the historical maps, they have all the info on roads and other rights of ways. They should be able to help you clarify the legal status of the track.

princeofpounds

Do you really need planning permission to put a gate in your own fence? It seems unlikely to me, but if you do, does it matter whether the gate opens inwards (onto your own property) or outwards (onto someone else's)?

Some types of gates, yes you do. But it depends on size and location, doubt this one does. Tall or wide gates can do.

Ownership of land doesn't matter for planning. I could get planning permission to turn Westminster into a car park if it met planning policy. But if it opens onto someone else's land they are highly likely to stop you via the courts if required!

QTPie

Agree with contacting the local Council rights of way department or, alternatively, ask your neighbours (who have the problem) to show you the copy of their deeds detailing their ownership of the land.

Until Nov 2013, we owned a house at the top of a private road (a shared drive):
- the private road (shared drive) was off of a main road.
- our house address was the same as the main road (so we were "whatever house, whatever road") - this confused many delivery people!
- there was no sign up saying "private road".
- the road was unadopted.
- we and the other owners of the houses that FRONTED onto the private road were the only ones with access onto it. There were a couple of houses that backed onto the private road (i.e. they had fences along it) - they had no access rights (either vehicular or pedestrian) and no gates.
- we and the other owners who fronted onto the private road paid a proportional amount towards its upkeep/maintenance.
- the shared ownership/access/upkeep of the road was well documented in our deeds and those of the other owners that fronted onto the private road.

It sounds as though the road you are talking about COULD be similar.

This thread struck a chord with me because when we were selling, there was an issue raised by our buyer. There is a footpath that joins the private road that we lived off of to another (public) road that ran parallel. There is a gate where the footpath joins the public road and that gate was padlocked. Our buyers desperately wanted to use that footpath (as a cut through) to access the public road: so we (the sellers) had to find out who had padlocked the gate and to ensure access. I spent a stressful couple of days over a really quite trivial matter.... Anyway, it turned out that the gate had been padlocked (combination) because the private road and footpath were being used by quite a few people as a cut through and this was considered a nuisance and an invasion of privacy (one of the great things about living up that private road was that you didn't get many "intruders"). So people who live on private roads do like their privacy and will take steps to stop people invading it (possibly even if it is just your one household).

Conversely, the house that we are buying (complete next week) has a large boundary with a private school playing field (the playing field is separate from the school buildings). There are public rights-of-way/footpaths within that school field. The owner before last put a pedestrian gate in the back fence and so the house can directly access the school field. This was done at some point between 1980 (when the house was built) and 2004, but probably earlier rather than later. The sellers regularly used that gate to access the field for their kids to walk to school or to take the dogs across to the public right-of-way to various paths. There has never been any (recorded or admitted to our solicitor) dispute about the gate/access. Certainly if we did receive a complaint from the school we would act on it (although I am guessing that there are some probably some grandfather rights/acceptance after nearly 35 years...). A few of the other houses in the cul de sac also have gates onto the school field (so we aren't the only one).

QT

System

Don't put a gate, just leave a gap in the fence.

Your fence, its up to you whether you have one or not.

AnnieO1234

OP what do you actually gain by using this roadway? If it's worth the time and effort, write to every single house that obviously has rights over it and see if you can come to an amicable solution.

To those PPs who aren't seeing why there's such a fuss, how is this different to someone suddenly sticking a gate in your boundary fence just because they can?

I can understand people being cautious (as in the ones who have told you you have no rights) because if this is indeed a shard driveway/private road, they're potentially opening themselves up to a lot of problems allowing anyone to use it.

My situation in similar to QTPie in that we have a private access road, no it's not signed or anything, but the opposite homes have no right of access over it other than the usual maintaining their property thing. They don't contribute to it's maintenance, each portion of the road is cared for by the house it is outside of, and the opposite homes have no vehicle or pedestrian rights to use it.

Get hold of land registry copies of the titles and plans to a couple of the houses on the road itself, hopefully it will be fairly clear from them and recorded on the register.

Xx