Finding a job after dismissal for gross misconduct

nervousnelly_2

Denning. wrote: »

That's false. If the reference was misleading then the new employer could sue the old employer. However there is no duty to answer any question.

The HR woman at his work told him different though... so what can he do to challenge that??

agrinnall

Denning. wrote: »

That's false. If the reference was misleading then the new employer could sue the old employer. However there is no duty to answer any question.

No duty, no, but they are perfectly at liberty to answer any question and provide any unasked for information as long as it is true.

Denning.

agrinnall wrote: »

No duty, no, but they are perfectly at liberty to answer any question and provide any unasked for information as long as it is true.

Gold star for you. If you brushed up on your comprehension you will see that he is on good terms with his boss, who will give a good reference but won't lie. The best outcome is to get his boss to only provide and time and title reference. You won't lose a job offer over such a referenece and there is no legal comeback on his boss.

Denning.

nervousnelly wrote: »

The HR woman at his work told him different though... so what can he do to challenge that??

He can't really. He is going to take the advice of his companies hr department over yours, it is irrational for him to take an unneeded risk. You can try and explain to them that time and date is safe for them. However IMO HR people are quite arrogate when it comes to employment law despite being little more knowledgeable than the average Joe.

Undervalued

Denning. wrote: »

He can't really. He is going to take the advice of his companies hr department over yours, it is irrational for him to take an unneeded risk. You can try and explain to them that time and date is safe for them. However IMO HR people are quite arrogate when it comes to employment law despite being little more knowledgeable than the average Joe.

I agree.

The other problem you have is that they are under no legal obligation to provide a reference at all. If you make an issue they may well do that as the safe option. A flat refusal is often just as damaging as a "bad" reference and there is nothing whatever you can do about it.

All I can suggest is that he gives the name of the "friendly" manager and hopes that he responds without HR getting involved.

dandelionclock30

It really depends on what the field he is now entering want to know regarding a persons background. Some employers want to know reasons for leaving and wont accept a basic reference. If the old employer wont provide this information, then they wont employ the person.
So dont think it a basic reference wont lose him a job offer, it could do. If he wants to do anything thats strictish like working with children/vulnerable people or the financial sector etc, he will not get away with it

cazziebo

Difficult to help without knowing more information but please don't post it in a public forum!

Critical things are :
What is the sector?
How closed is it?
How regulated is it?
How in demand are his skills?

Of your options
1 is a non starter. I would seek references from the most relevant employer, not the most recent if they're in a completely different sector. That's a tactic to keep income coming in, but not to get back to a career role

2.Possible. Build up a reputation with a firm overseas and then return. Most companies want 5 years references and he would also have to reassure new employer that he had returned to UK for good.

3. This is very dependent on the sector. Not every company takes up references (don't think I've ever had references checked on me). However he would have to come clean at interview stage or run the risk of being found out at any time. What he did was fraud and there is no masking that. He might just get lucky and find an employer who will believe he has learned a tough lesson.

(I know someone who was fired from a board position for a serious criminal offence. He did get a much more junior role with a large, respected firm and has managed to work his way up to GM. It can be done)

nervousnelly_2

Thanks for the replies so far and I have been telling him all about this. It is very helpful. Without wanting to disclose too much about the kind of work he does on a public forum, all I can say here is that it has nothing to do with direct contact with people, children or the vulnerable and he definitely has the knowledge to do what he does very well. He has gotten hired before without a recent reference (in fact the reference was a company that had closed down), in this field, after going backpacking for a few years... so chances are, if they don't want to provide a reference, it's not that damaging, as he also has other ex-company references who will put in a good word for him.

I guess the problem is not just the fact that if his ex-employer is going to disclose why he left, but even if his ex-employer doesn't, he would have to explain why he left the current job abruptly (without securing another one first). He is willing to take a demotion and a pay cut in another company and work his way up again. But how much should he say if he does secure an interview with another company? He should not lie, yes? But how much to say? What he did was wrong, and really I guess, not much he can say to defend himself really. Yes he was overworked, but he should not have reacted that way.

Shazza122

Hi Nelly. From someone who has also been dismissed for GM I would suggest not putting reason for leaving on cover letter/application but to be honest and up front at interview.

My ex employer assured me that only a standard reference would be issued e.g. position, dates employed etc. unless it was for a high risk job or if they were legally required to disclose reason for leaving (for example to DWP when claiming JSA).

Is he in an industry were he could do temp work? I managed to get a temp role within a week or do of my dismissal...yes I have taken a huge cut in salary but a jobs a job!!! :-))

CazGreg

You might be worrying about nothing.

In my experience (many, many years) of jobseeking and dozens of interviews, I've only been asked in about 5% of them why I left last job (and I CERTAINLY would never put it in a cover letter or on a CV - that just isn't necessary).

References have also only been taken up in about 50% of the jobs I've had. And I've NEVER had a new employer or potential employer that insists on the references coming from your last job. Even if it states that on a form - honestly, they rarely care or even notice if it is from your last job.

I think you are probably worrying unnecessarily. You say things like 'he would have to explain why he left the current job abruptly' - believe me, that's not necessarily the case at all. You'd be surprised how many employers don't care or even think to ask. There are many reasons for leaving a job. Potential reasons include going on a training course, paternity leave, illness, company restructuring, role changed... There is no actual 'rule' that you have to have a new job in place before leaving an old one. Many employers are far too busy to delve into reasons for these things. They simply take you at face value and go by what you have written down and what you tell them - so NEVER voluntarily tell them negative things, as the chances are, it will never even come up.

So, I wouldn't start worrying about complicated ways to get good references or get round the issue. I'd simply apply for all possible jobs, go to interviews ... and on the off-chance that you get one who asks about the last job, and it is enough to put them off, don't worry - the next one probably won't. There are millions of people jobseeking for a huge range of reasons out there.