I've ignored my 'PCN', was this wrong?!

Redx

query 1) you can only do this if the 2 are different people, not the same person, if they are the same person it cannot be done (it cannot be done if there was a windscreen ticket either)

they have up to 6 years to take it to court, typically this happens between 1 and 3 years later , so say 18 months later on average , but 6 years maximum, so do not assume

query 2) wait for a reply

Coupon-mad

Hugo77 wrote: »

I can only reset the clock if the driver and keeper are different people, and give all the details of the driver? What if D&K are the same person?

Well it was a long time ago...think a bit harder about who was driving!

Hugo77 wrote: »

I am inclined to think that as this has now been ongoing for over a year it will likely not receive court action?

I wouldn't count your chickens with Excel over the next few years. I'd name the other person who was probably driving that day...and include both PCN numbers on the letter discharging the keeper's liability. IMHO it is better to give a different address as well as the driver's name and this has been recently discussed in depth on other recent Excel threads so no need for a discussion here about drivers, who is insured on that car (irrelevant, as I could have been the driver as could anyone with fully comp insurance). No need to worry about the drivers/relatives/who lives where (the address given for service of a PCN to the driver does not have to be the driver's residence).

Other Excel threads about rewinding the clock are easily found by using 'search this forum' for keywords 'rewind Excel'. The forum search facility is explained in the NEWBIES thread, post #5 I think.

Hugo77 wrote: »

They've also given two different PCN's for the same contravention, so everything is doubled. So far I have received 12 letters!

Slightly more likely to be chosen for a small claim in future maybe. Hence why I say be proactive. I am not telling you to lie...I am saying have a good think about the driver as it was a year ago and you could have been wrong in your assumption that this is down to the keeper.

Hugo77

Ok... I will have a rethink about who was driving at the time.

But, Redx points out that this cannot be done if there was a windscreen ticket. So, perhaps I need to rethink if there was a windscreen ticket too?

Coupon-mad

Peel Centre & Luton Airport PCNs would surely have been postal...never heard of the Peel Centre putting a ticket on a windscreen. Anyway with both, you can tell from the wording of the NTK. It would say 'a PCN was...served on the windscreen or handed to the driver...blah blah and the driver did not pay so the discount has gone' or whatever, if there had been a windscreen PCN.

Redx

Hugo77 wrote: »

Ok... I will have a rethink about who was driving at the time.

But, Redx points out that this cannot be done if there was a windscreen ticket. So, perhaps I need to rethink if there was a windscreen ticket too?

I have also pointed out in many peel centre threads that the details there are one anpr camera on the way in, ticket machines all over the place where you buy a ticket and enter the reg number, and one anpr camera on the way out

I am not aware of any windscreen tickets being issued there but will stand corrected if there are any

so generally speaking you get a postal pcn as RK within 14 days due to POFA 2012 and have 28 days to appeal or to name the driver

so I doubt there was a windscreen ticket myself, as the system there relies on anpr + the ticket machines and reg numbers checked against the anpr and postal ntk,s when the 2 dont match or werent purchased etc

if by any chance there was a windscreen ticket for the driver, the postal pcn NTK would arrive between 29 and 56 days later

Hugo77

Re. Peel Centre
I followed your advice and wrote to Excel with details of the drivers name, in order to reset the clock.

But. Excel responded to say they are no longer in contact with me and only to communicate with the debt collector. However, the debt collectors last correspondence was to say they were passing the case back to Excel.

Is there anything more I can do with this? Or just wait for the next debt collector to get in touch? Also, will a debt collector accept my information on the driver and allow the clock to be reset?


Re. Liverpool airport
They turned down my appeal and sent me a POPLA code, so now for the next appeal.

I've looked through some good examples in the forums, and any other advice is very welcome.

Thanks in advance.

Redx

the point here is that if excel issued an mcol you have already asked them to check your appeal etc, or to give you a popla code for ADR , so ignore debt collectors but not any LBC or court papers, clearly explained already in the NEWBIES sticky thread

debt collectors just want your money, or any money, they neither know nor care about who did what and only the PPC can take action (or the landowner in actuality or in most cases)

as for VCS, there are dozens of recent examples if you use the search function and words like JLA so find a recent good appeal and use it , as is ! (or slightly adapted to your own case)

couldnt be easier due to the sheer number of threads about JLA already

Coupon-mad

Re. Peel Centre
I followed your advice and wrote to Excel with details of the drivers name, in order to reset the clock.

Excel like to pretend they don't have to take it up with the driver at this late stage but if you have given the name and a postal address for the driver then you have discharged your liability as keeper, end of. They are wrong. You can send an email complaint to the BPA, to Steve Clark as per post #6 of the NEWBIES thread.

Hugo77

Thanks, I will email the BPA, as Excel have said they'll no longer respond to me:
'we will not acknowledge or respond to any further correspondence due to non receipt of payment within 28days of the Notice To Keeper being issued'.


Re. POPLA appeal at Liverpool Airport,

The reason for this PCN is due to the car being parked on a curbed area as there were no spaces. This was at night, and I didn't see any signs to advise not to park there, and other cars were also parked in the same area. On a picture they sent there is a small sign in the distance behind the car. But they weren't lit up at night.

I've drafted a POPLA appeal letter taken from various examples on here, I'd appreciate it if you could look over it?

I know a lot of the appeals mention Non-compliant ANPR 'hidden camera van' system, however i'm not sure this was used in my case so i've excluded it.


Here's my draft appeal:

POPLA Verification Code: (to be inserted)
Vehicle Registration: (to be inserted)
PCN Ref: (to be inserted)
Alleged Contravention date and time: (to be inserted)
Date of initial notice: (to be inserted)
Date of my response: (to be inserted)
Date of rejection to my response: (to be inserted)
Parking Charge Amounts: (to be inserted)


Dear POPLA assessor

As the registered keeper of the above vehicle, I am appealing against the Parking Charge Notice issued against this vehicle on the grounds stated below..


1) Amount demanded is a penalty not a genuine pre estimate of loss
2) Not relevant Land under POFA 2012; no registered keeper liability
3) No landowner contract nor legal standing to form contracts or charge drivers or Keepers
4) No Contract with driver
5) Misleading and unclear signage




1) The amount demanded is a penalty and not a Genuine Pre-estimate of loss.
The parking charge does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore is unfair as defined in the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. As Vehicle Control Services Ltd (VCS) are alleging a 'failure to comply' yet cannot show this is a genuine pre-estimate of loss, they have breached the BPA Code of Practice, which renders this charge unenforceable.



2) Not Relevant Land as defined under POFA 2012; no registered keeper liability.
The driver has not been identified, yet APCOA are claiming POFA 2012 registered keeper liability for this charge. The registered keeper is not liable for this charge as Liverpool Airport is designated as an airport by the Secretary of State and therefore roads within the airport are subject to airport bylaws and so POFA 2012 does not apply. I put the Operator to strict proof otherwise if they disagree with this point and would require them to show evidence including documentary proof from the Airport Authority that this land is not covered by bylaws.


3) No landowner contract nor legal standing to form contracts or charge drivers or Keepers
As VCS are not the owners of this land and as such they cannot form a contract with the driver or Keeper, I wish VCS to provide me with a full un-redacted legally certified by an independent solicitor as a true copy of the original copy of their contract with the landowner which allows them to form such a contract. A witness statement as to the existence of such a contract is not sufficient. I believe there is no contract with the landowner that gives VCS the legal standing to levy these charges nor pursue them in the courts in their own name as creditor. This was shown to be the case by District Judge McIlwaine in VCS v Ibbotson, Case No 1SE09849 16.5.2012 (transcript in the public domain). So as regards the strict requirements regarding the scope and wording of landowner contracts, VCS have breached the BPA Code of Practice section 7 and failed to demonstrate their legal standing, which renders this charge unenforceable.


4) No contract with driver.
If a contract is to be formed, upon entering the site a driver must be able to read, understand and agree to the terms and conditions (see 'misleading and unclear signage' below). A driver could not be expected to stop in order to read non compliant located signs as they enter the road. In any case, as VCS are only an agent working for the owner, mere signs do not help them to form a contract. VCS -v-HMRC 2012 is the binding decision in the Upper Chamber which covers this issue with compelling statements of fact about this sort of business model. In this instance, there was no contract formed whatsoever, no consideration was capable of being offered to the driver, and no pertinent signs were clearly visible.


5) Misleading and unclear signage.
The signage on display at the airport is poorly illuminated in hours of darkness (it was dark when the alleged contravention was deemed to have occurred) and does not carry the appearance of official signage. It looks more like advertising signage. Further to this there are vast areas of the car park where signage is not in place. My vehicle was parked in just such an area. Furthermore the signs at this location are unable to be seen by a driver and certainly cannot be read without stopping as the text is too small, and therefore do not comply with the BPA code of practice. VCS are required to show evidence to the contrary. I would draw the assessor's attention to the 'No Stopping Zones' section of the Chief Adjudicator's First AnnualPOPLAReport2013: ''It is therefore very important that any prohibition is clearly marked; bearing in mind that such signage has to be positioned, and be of such a size, as to be read by a motorist without having to stop to look at it.''

1. The BPA AOS Code of Practice sets out in detail how the operator should lay out their signs. The appellant contends that the operator has failed in all respects to comply with the requirements of the Code.

2. The appellant contends that such signage as has been deployed by the operator in terms of the type face and size used, its location- particularly being fixed above head height on lamp standards at the roadside - render them unreadable.

3. Even if a driver was to look up, were he travelling at a speed of just 25mph (11metres/sec), he would be unable to read the sign before passing it. The Operator has therefore failed to comply with sections 28.2, 28.3 and 28.4 of Appendix A of the Code and so cannot consider the driver to have been properly informed and cannot therefore seek to rely upon those signs as the basis of any contract.

Coupon-mad

You won't get POPLA unless the BPA make Excel start again. And when you do appeal to POPLA point #2 does not apply (not an Airport and it wouldn't be an appeal from the keeper anyway) and you have left 'APCOA' in the draft for starters. Also, Excel don't ticket at Airports, and you've headed it up about an Airport?

Don't waste your time on the POPLA appeal yet as you need to really badger the BPA first if you are the driver and convince them that the driver has never had/seen the letters and has the right to appeal once they get a PCN in their own right.