CPM Fleet Waterfront Business Park

ktm1974

Hi everyone,
My wife received a PCN from uk car park management ltd yesterday when she came to pick me up from Fleet train. The train station itself is under major development with car access in and out being very limited. Right next to the station is the business park which is a convenient pickup. However on this occasion she was slighty early - within 3 minutes of her arriving and me jumping in an agent of cpm had slapped a ticket on the windscreen. She had stopped on double yellow lines with no double tabs on the kerb, still had the engine running and hadn't left the car. The agent had come from behind taken a photo from the rear then the front, issued the ticket and walked on further down the road to take a photo of the parking sign. There are no signs on entry to the business park and the signs further down the road were not visible from where she had parked pkus it was dark. Surely the agent should give a resonable amount of time before issuing the ticket?
Now my wife is concerned due to usual key words, court debt recovery etc and wants to pay the reduce charge of £60. Having read a lot of posts and the newbie sticky I have come to the conclusion that we should wait for the ntk before submitting an appeal to the ppc and definitely should not pay the fine.
Any advise greatly appreciated.

Stroma

You got the gist of it, wait for the NtK which must be with you between days 29-56 after ticketing. Then send a soft appeal once it arrives

Coupon-mad

ktm1974 wrote: »

There are no signs on entry to the business park

Please take pictures asap and show us the entrance view as seen from a car height in the dark.

ktm1974 wrote: »

and the signs further down the road were not visible from where she had parked plus it was dark.

Please take a picture of a sign in the dark with no flash (to replicate the situation), then a separate one where the wording is fully readable. You have a month to wait for the NTK at least, so you can do this in the next week or three. Post them here for us to see but as a 'broken link' (remove the http:// as you are a newbie and can't yet post working links).

ktm1974 wrote: »

Now my wife is concerned due to usual key words, court debt recovery etc and wants to pay the reduce charge of £60. Having read a lot of posts and the newbie sticky I have come to the conclusion that we should wait for the ntk before submitting an appeal to the ppc and definitely should not pay the fine.

It's certainly not a fine! And you are right, and your wife is wrong in this instance. This can be beaten but UKCPM use ambiguous signage wording and needs a special POPLA appeal. Please don't lose sight of that fact way forward at POPLA stage as you will need to take your time & get help to make it a winner.

However, the 'first appeal' can be the generic one in the NEWBIES thread when you are ready with the NTK next month. Please use the template as it's deliberately written to eke out the truth of the 'basis of the charge' - which their signs pretend are a 'contractual fee'. If it was they'd have to send you a VAT invoice which is why I wrote that into the generic challenge letter - to flush out the ones who are lying.

4consumerrights

+1 ^^^^

Wait until the Ntk arrives before coming back.

As coupon states - we need photos here to assist - have seen several from this PPC with different wording and a redacted NtK.

POPLA appeal will be dissecting the wording and ambiguous contradictory wording on both regarding the parking charge.

Signage and No contract made with driver/Contract with landowner and locus standi.

ktm1974

Thank you for your responses. I'll aim to get the photos done this weekend as the area won't be so busy at the weekend.

ktm1974

In response to Coupon-mad here are the photos.
The entrance:
flickr.com/photos/37539164@N02/13057703823
The sign from the car
flickr.com/photos/37539164@N02/13057901924
The actual sign with flash:
flickr.com/photos/37539164@N02/13057721683

As you can see not much is visible during the evening. If you need daytime shots please let me know.
Thanks again

Coupon-mad

Nice photos fro your POPLA evidence, very dark, unlit and not prominent enough at all:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/37539164@N02/13057703823

http://www.flickr.com/photos/37539164@N02/13057901924

http://www.flickr.com/photos/37539164@N02/13057721683

It's the usual CPM sign where they pretend it's a 'contractual' fee but clearly it is not if the sign is also saying such parking is prohibited/unauthorised.

So when you do get the NTK I expect it will talk about 'breach of contract' which isn't a contractual fee! Anyway when you get it, send the template first appeal I have written in the NEWBIES thread which is worded to force them to declare the nature of the charge. Makes it easier to expose their sham at POPLA.

ktm1974

So the NTK has finally turned up. With regards to Stroma's response above, this must arrive within 29-56 days, by my calculations its taken 58 days for them to process not taking into account the 7 days that it eligibly took to deliver! So do I still proceed with the first appeal?
Thanks again for your invaluable help.

Stroma

Yes you still continue with the appeal as described above. You could add on the fact that the NtK was late arriving so they cannot hold the keeper liable, pofa 2012 is strict on this.

ktm1974

Apologies Stroma I've just re-read the newbies article again to familiarise myself again. One point, I did notice that in paragraph 9 section 5 of POFA2012 it states for the purpose of section 4, notice to keeper is 14 days beginning with the day after that on which the specified period of parking ended. Which works out a lot less than 56 days, 42 to be precise, unless I have misunderstood.
PCN issued on the 26th Feb, 28 day period, takes us to 26th March, plus 14 days brings us to the 9th of April. Nearly a whole calendar month late.
Sorry another point, both paragraph 8 & 9 sections 2a states the notice must specify the period of parking to which the notice relates, and clearly the NTK doesn't.
Thanks again, I will crack on with the initial appeal.

Redx

NTK `s tend to have all kinds of errors, as mentioned in the sticky thread

as for the notice period , 14 days is when no windscreen ticket was issued , so by post only

29 to 56 days is an NTK where a windscreen ticket was issued , to the driver , so the NTK to the keeper arrives if the driver doesnt deal with the windscreen ticket

so 2 options depending on who tells who what