Proving title to a freehold

GTG

I have a 50% stake in the freehold of the block of four maisonettes where I live. The other 50% was owned by my neighbour who passed away recently. We also have leases granted to ourselves. I have been told by one of the executrices who has obtained the grant of representation that he has left his 50% share to his two daughters and two grandsons.

They want to talk to me about keeping the freehold and extending the lease on the deceased's maisonette in order to sell it. I have no proof of their title to the freehold and I am hoping someone would be able to tell me how I obtain this proof. I know that the land registry only allow four people as proprietors to be registered on the title so that will not be proof.

Any help appreciated.

ethank

Aren't most freeholds of this type owned by a company of which the proprietors are directors of the company?

Land_Registry

Based on your post the freehold title is presumably still registered in your joint names, namely you and the now deceased neighbour.
If there are executors to his/her estate then they will have been appointed on the basis of Probate and it is the Probate which gives them the authority to deal with the legal ownership as if they were the registered owners. Ask for a copy of the Probate so you cna see who you need to deal with.

On the basis that you proceed as they suggest then you can apply to Transfer the ownership of the freehold using form TR1. You and the Executors (presumably not all four?) would simply Transfer the property to You and the Four beneficiaries. Whilst the Transfer would name Five new legal owners only the first Four would be registered although the fifth would still be considered a joint owner.

The extension of the leases would then be a separate matter.
In the circumstanecs I would encourage you to seek legal advice as whilst the basis of the Transfer of ownership would appear sound you will all need to consider the wider issues around joint ownership and how to protect the 'new shares' in the freehold for example.

But based on what you have said their suggestion seems sound and the proof seems likely to already exist.

xylophone

I imagine that the Exors will be consulting a solicitor and I should think that you would be well advised to consult one too?

GTG

Land_Registry_representative wrote: »

Based on your post the freehold title is presumably still registered in your joint names, namely you and the now deceased neighbour.
If there are executors to his/her estate then they will have been appointed on the basis of Probate and it is the Probate which gives them the authority to deal with the legal ownership as if they were the registered owners. Ask for a copy of the Probate so you cna see who you need to deal with.

On the basis that you proceed as they suggest then you can apply to Transfer the ownership of the freehold using form TR1. You and the Executors (presumably not all four?) would simply Transfer the property to You and the Four beneficiaries. Whilst the Transfer would name Five new legal owners only the first Four would be registered although the fifth would still be considered a joint owner.

The extension of the leases would then be a separate matter.
In the circumstances I would encourage you to seek legal advice as whilst the basis of the Transfer of ownership would appear sound you will all need to consider the wider issues around joint ownership and how to protect the 'new shares' in the freehold for example.

But based on what you have said their suggestion seems sound and the proof seems likely to already exist.

Thank you for your reply.

As only four proprietors are allowed on any one title the two executrices names are to be added to the title register in place of the deceased. As the executrices are also trustees in their fathers Will a deed of trust is in the process of being set up to define the legal relationship and rights of ownership of all of their interests in the freehold i.e. the two daughters and the two grandsons. As the Will is now a public document - grant of probate has been issued - I have requested a copy from the probate service to ensure I have been given the correct information in order to speak only with those necessary. I understand a solicitor will not be able to do anything with regard to lease extensions etc until the new co-owners are registered on the title at the land registry. Is that correct?

My understanding is that I will only need to deal with the trustees of the other 50% stakeholders in the freehold. I presume once the transfer has been done the land registry will send the new stakeholders some sort of notification, perhaps I copy of the entry in the register? Perhaps I could ask them for that as proof?

Many thanks

Land_Registry

GTG wrote: »

I understand a solicitor will not be able to do anything with regard to lease extensions etc until the new co-owners are registered on the title at the land registry. Is that correct?

My understanding is that I will only need to deal with the trustees of the other 50% stakeholders in the freehold. I presume once the transfer has been done the land registry will send the new stakeholders some sort of notification, perhaps I copy of the entry in the register? Perhaps I could ask them for that as proof?

Many thanks

I can't really advise on whether or not a solicitor will be happy to proceed with the lease extension prior to actual registration of the executors as joint owners. As I mentioned the probate affords them a legal authority to deal and if the Transfer is completed and lodged a solicitor may be happy to proceed before the registration is completed but that is for them to decide/advise upon.

The proof of ownership is held electronically by us so you can check online as to the current state of the register on any date to see who is registered etc. As I mentioned the Transfer of title should still involve you as the other freeholder so you may be able to ask the solicitor acting to provide you with evidence of completion as and when registration is completed?

GTG

Land_Registry_representative wrote: »

The proof of ownership is held electronically by us so you can check online as to the current state of the register on any date to see who is registered etc.

In this case, what will the entry in the title register look like? Obviously my name will be there but as far as the new owners are concerned will only the names of the trustees be there with a reference to a deed of trust governing their stake or something else?

Land_Registry_representative wrote: »

As I mentioned the Transfer of title should still involve you as the other freeholder so you may be able to ask the solicitor acting to provide you with evidence of completion as and when registration is completed?

My understanding is that I do not need to give them permission to transfer the deceased title to the beneficiaries. They inherit the 50% title through the Will and a term in the declaration of trust allows them to become the new owners without me having to become involved.

I am not a client of their legal representative doing their probate work so I will ask the new co-owners to get their legal guy to provide evidence of completion.

Thanks

Land_Registry

The ownership details are provided in the B Proprietorship Register entry which will show the full name(s) of the legal owners and their address for service (the address9es) to which we would write/email if we needed to)
So I imagine you would have yourself and the two trustees shown.
There would be no reference to the specific trust deed but it is likely that there would be a form A restriction to demonstrate that there is a trust element to the joint ownership.

It is important to recognise that it is the legal ownership that we register. The beneficial ownership, namely who owns what share, is not specifically registered but often it is indicated on the title as mentioned but it has to be applied for.

I agree that the issue of the trustees and their holding their 50% share on behalf of others is not something you would be involved with. However you will have to be involved if the trustees are to be registered, with you, as joint owners. You cannot transfer a half share in the legal ownership.

My recommendation would be to ask them to confirm when they have completed the trust deed and resolved the probate/will aspects. Once that is done a Transfer of the legal ownership will be required and I would strongly recommend seeking legal advice to understand the impact of joint ownership in such circumstances.

The completion of a Transfer and submission of the application for registration can be quite straightforward as explained in our online guidance linked to above.

Note - our website is currently 'down' so I cannot link you to the joint ownership information. However the guidance on Transfer also links to it so as and when the site recovers you should be able to source the additional guidance/information

GTG

Land_Registry_representative wrote: »

The ownership details are provided in the B Proprietorship Register entry which will show the full name(s) of the legal owners and their address for service (the address9es) to which we would write/email if we needed to)
So I imagine you would have yourself and the two trustees shown.
There would be no reference to the specific trust deed but it is likely that there would be a form A restriction to demonstrate that there is a trust element to the joint ownership.

It is important to recognise that it is the legal ownership that we register. The beneficial ownership, namely who owns what share, is not specifically registered but often it is indicated on the title as mentioned but it has to be applied for.

I agree that the issue of the trustees and their holding their 50% share on behalf of others is not something you would be involved with. However you will have to be involved if the trustees are to be registered, with you, as joint owners. You cannot transfer a half share in the legal ownership.

My recommendation would be to ask them to confirm when they have completed the trust deed and resolved the probate/will aspects. Once that is done a Transfer of the legal ownership will be required and I would strongly recommend seeking legal advice to understand the impact of joint ownership in such circumstances.

The completion of a Transfer and submission of the application for registration can be quite straightforward as explained in our online guidance linked to above.

Note - our website is currently 'down' so I cannot link you to the joint ownership information. However the guidance on Transfer also links to it so as and when the site recovers you should be able to source the additional guidance/information

Thank you very much for your advice and such a comprehensive answer. All has become clear, thanks again.

GTG

I have received a TR1 transfer form completed by the executors solicitor with a covering letter asking me to sign it. I am not happy with it so I am going to give to a solicitor. I would like to point out why and maybe land registry representative will once again be kind enough to reply.

First of all I am happy to say that I have received a copy of probate and the deceased's Will. It all checks out that the two daughters are the executors and trustees as I mentioned before but had n't been able to confirm until now. They are, as trustees to hold their 50% of the freehold under a deed of trust for themselves and two grandsons of the deceased in unequal shares. One of the daughters has been kind enough to show me the deed of trust.

I have checked and downloaded the entry for the freehold title on the LR site. The deceased name i.e. the ex 50% co-owner has been removed. The freehold is only in my name at the moment.

The TR1 form:-

Box 1 - OK correct title number

Box 2 - correct property addresses

Box 3 - Date -I have been asked to leave undated. I understand that will be completed once the last witnessed signature goes on the document on box 12 at the end. My name appears on the top of the signature list in box so I have been asked to sign it first.

Box 4 - Transferor - solely my name on as transferor

Box 5 - Transferee - The two daughters names only. I do not think this is correct!! I think my name should also be here or I will be excluded from the register!!

Box 6 - Transferees addresses for service - My name and address as well as the two daughters names and addresses

Box 7 - The transferor transfers the property to the transferees

Box 8 - box second down crossed - The transfer is not for money etc- That's OK

Box 9 - lowest box down crossed -The transferor transfers with limited title guarantee - don't understand this one?

Box - 10 second box down crossed - they are to hold the property on trust for themselves as tenants in common in equal shares. There is a declaration of trust in place which was between myself and the deceased. There is a clause in it which basically says it remains intact and confers all the same rights to the beneficiaries. I understand the tenants in common is correct but the equal shares cannot possibly be correct when there is three people listed and I own 50%!?

Box - 11 Additional provisions - empty

Box - 12 Execution - waiting to be signed and witnessed by myself and the two daughters, three separate boxes.

TIA

Land_Registry

GTG - we would always recommend seeking legal advice, as you are doing, as the issues around the trust and how the property is 'held' as tenants in common need to be understood.

We cannot provide such legal advice but we do provide online guidance notes re with how to complete a form TR1

It is interesting to note though that you are named as the sole registered owner but I assume that someone has notified us of the other freeholder's death?
However if you are then you are correct that you would be referred to as the Transferor and that you would also be one of the three Transferees

The guidance notes seek to explain the meaning of panel 9 but if you remain uncertain then your legal adviser can assist

Box 10 - most would probably use the third part to describe the shares and/or mention the deed of trust etc