Is this a national fraud by the gas industry?

Conrad123

Bluebirdman_of_Alcathays wrote: »

No, with petrol you are paying for the volume. That is what your money gets you. The amount of energy it contains is irrelevant. What you do with it is up to you.

So why is that any different to gas. I should be paying for the volume.That is what my money should get me. What I do with it is up to me - as you say, that is how it is with petrol.

The amount of energy the petrol contains IS relevant. The more energy it has the further I go for each litre.

Bluebirdman_of_Alcathays wrote: »

What I don't understand is how any of this makes the way we pay for gas unfair -

With respect, like CARDEW, I think you have misunderstood my point. It is unfair because the CV of the gas that you pay for is not actually the CV of the gas that comes into your home. It could be higher or lower.

The CV is the value of the gas that your supplier paid for but is pumped somewhere into the grid. That actual gas probably never reaches your home. What you get is a blend of all the CV values pumped into the grid. You may pay one month for a high CV value but end up getting very low CV value gas into your house that month.

You are not paying for what you get.

IF your meter measured Calorific Value (or better still kWh) then I would accept that you should be charged for the heat value. BUT, since this would be very difficult, if not imposible to measure, then I think it would be much fairer to charge for volume used (as with petrol where the same problem of measuring the latent energy exists).

If gas were charged per volume the supplier would have to absorb the variations in calorific values. After all they already absorb the variations in the cost they buy the gas for on the spot markets.

Bluebirdman_of_Alcathays

Conrad123 wrote: »

So why is that any different to gas. I should be paying for the volume.That is what my money should get me. What I do with it is up to me - as you say, that is how it is with petrol



With respect, like CARDEW, I think you have misunderstood my point. It is unfair because the CV of the gas that you pay for is not actually the CV of the gas that comes into your home. It could be higher or lower.

The CV is the value of the gas that your supplier paid for but is pumped somewhere into the grid. That actual gas probably never reaches your home. What you get is a blend of all the CV values pumped into the grid. You may pay one month for a high CV value but end up getting very low CV value gas into your house that month.

You are not paying for what you get.

IF your meter measured Calorific Value (or better still kWh) then I would accept that you should be charged for the heat value. BUT, since this would be very difficult, if not imposible to measure, then I think it would be much fairer to charge for volume used (as with petrol where the same problem of measuring the latent energy exists).

If gas were charged per volume the supplier would have to absorb the variations in calorific values. After all they already absorb the variations in the cost they buy the gas for on the spot markets.

I completely understand your point - I just disagree with it.

The methodology behind the CV system is inherently fair.

I accept that the CV you pay for may not be the one coming into your home (I actually have no idea and I doubt you do either, unless you've taken time to measure the thermal capacity of natural gas). However that means the system is being abused, not that the mathematical rationale is flawed.

Cardew

Conrad123 wrote: »

CARDEW

With respect I think you have missed the point.

The point is that it is an unfair way to charge.

Your 'coal' argument is a good example of what I mean. You buy a ton of coal for a certain price and you know exactly what calorific value you have bought. As you say you would pay more for higher CV coal.

You buy a m3 of gas and you are charged a notional CV which could bear no relationship to the CV of the gas coming into your home at the time you used it.

This is particularly so for companies like Daligas who charge annually for your usage and somehow use an 'annual' CV rate, which at best can only be a crude average and very loosely related to the CV of the gas you used throughout the year.

I do not believe I have missed the point!


You are basing your argument on the incorrect assumption ' that you are charged a notional CV which could bear no relationship to the CV of the gas coming into your home at the time you used it.'


Have you bothered to read the detail in the National Grid link posted above?

How is Calorific Value Measured?

The CV of natural gas is measured continually using process gas chromatographs.

Process gas chromatographs separate natural gas into its constituent compounds (i.e. methane, ethane, carbon dioxide, etc.) and measures the amount of each in the gas. The physical characteristics of each component, as defined by ISO 6976, are programmed into the chromatograph and an overall CV is derived from the measured composition.

The determination of the CV of gas is carried out in accordance with international standards and the Gas (Calculation of Thermal Energy) Regulations, as amended in 1997. These regulations stipulate when and where the CV of gas is measured and the type of instrument to be used. The regulations are enforced by Ofgem, who also perform audit checks on the primary data.


Where is Calorific Value Measured?

The calorific value of natural gas is measured at reception terminals and other locations on the National Grid pipeline system. At present the CV of gas is measured at over 110 different locations in the UK mainland.


Calculation of Thermal Energy

The amount of energy consumed by a customer is calculated using the following formula:
The United Kingdom mainland has been subdivided into thirteen charging areas.
A daily CV average for each charging area is provided by National Grid to the gas shippers and suppliers, and is calculated as follows:-
The volumes of all inputs into the charging area are measured on a daily basis and a daily CV average determined for each input.

The daily CV average for the charging area is then calculated by summing the product of the CV and volume for all the inputs and dividing by the total volume of gas entering the charging area.
CV = (38.2 x 6) + (40.2 x 1) + (39.6 x 3) (total energy) / (6 + 1 + 3) (total volume)

The maximum daily CV average for the charging area permitted by the regulations is equal to 1.0 MJ/m³ above the lowest measured daily CV average of the inputs into the charging area.

All domestic customers and most industrial customers are billed on the basis of the daily CV averages for the charging area in which their premises are situated and are applied to the volume of gas consumed.

In particular the last paragraph(in red) completely refutes your contention that the CV of the gas entering a customer's property is unknown.

ollski

Conrad123 wrote: »

Yes I am paying for energy when I buy petrol - energy to make my car move.

What about when you buy a mars bar, are you paying for the energy to make your legs move or are you paying for a chocolate bar? ;-)

Cardew

To make further points, by 'Fraud' you are suggesting that National Grid and Ofgem are colluding with the various gas companies to get customers to pay too much for their gas.


I also cannot understand how you can think that paying for gas by volume will solve this 'fraud'.

Conrad123

Cardew wrote: »

I do not believe I have missed the point!


You are basing your argument on the incorrect assumption ' that you are charged a notional CV which could bear no relationship to the CV of the gas coming into your home at the time you used it.'


Have you bothered to read the detail in the National Grid link posted above?
In particular the last paragraph(in red) completely refutes your contention that the CV of the gas entering a customer's property is unknown.

Thank you for that interesting information.

In fact what I read from that is that the CV of the gas coming into my home is NOT known exactly. What they charge is based on a range of measurements from a range of measuring points and calculated using complicated formulae and fudge factors. (Where do these numbers come from '(38.2 x 6) + (40.2 x 1) + (39.6 x 3)'?)

I accept that the industry tries very hard to get as accurate as possible guesstimate of my gas's CV but it can never be exactly correct.

As I indicated in the Daligas method of charging that I mentioned this is greatly flawed.

Conrad123

ollski wrote: »

What about when you buy a mars bar, are you paying for the energy to make your legs move or are you paying for a chocolate bar? ;-)

I am paying for a level of enjoyment which is directly related to the size of the Mars Bar. The amount of energy it gives me is secondary if not irrelevant.

Conrad123

Cardew wrote: »

To make further points, by 'Fraud' you are suggesting that National Grid and Ofgem are colluding with the various gas companies to get customers to pay too much for their gas.


I also cannot understand how you can think that paying for gas by volume will solve this 'fraud'.

You are correct 'fraud' is incorrect - I only used it to draw attention.

Have you ever read headlines in 'The Sun'?

Bluebirdman_of_Alcathays

Conrad123 wrote: »

You are correct 'fraud' is incorrect - I only used it to draw attention.

Have you ever read headlines in 'The Sun'?

Yes - and most of their content is a load of old !!!! as well!

Conrad123

Bluebirdman_of_Alcathays wrote: »

Yes - and most of their content is a load of old !!!! as well!

You are right of course - but it worked didn't it?