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PCN from Civil Enforcement Ltd for, literally, 3 mins time difference - ** SUCCESS!!*
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boxingbantz
Posts: 53 Forumite
Hi,
This is one of my first posts on here but, after receiving a PCN from the above company, I am livid and am seeking advice.
I went to a local restaurant on Sunday and, having checked the boards, noticed that after 1900 you get two hours free parking. I was there bang on 1900 so thought - easy, no worries about parking here.
Now, three days letter and a letter arrives on my door and it is a 'Parking Charge Notice' trying to charge me £60 if I pay now or £100 if it goes over the 14 days period.
The cheeky sods say I parked there at 18:56:22 - a mere three minutes before the free period. Now, with people's clocks all being slightly off, surely this is unacceptable? I have read horror stories about PCNs and how they are, basically, a scam.
I refuse to pay this but am after some advice if anyone has had anything similar? I'm aware that, legally, you do NOT have to pay these fines. Surely this ridiculous 3 minute time difference wouldn't stand up in a civil court?
Any help would be appreciated.
This is one of my first posts on here but, after receiving a PCN from the above company, I am livid and am seeking advice.
I went to a local restaurant on Sunday and, having checked the boards, noticed that after 1900 you get two hours free parking. I was there bang on 1900 so thought - easy, no worries about parking here.
Now, three days letter and a letter arrives on my door and it is a 'Parking Charge Notice' trying to charge me £60 if I pay now or £100 if it goes over the 14 days period.
The cheeky sods say I parked there at 18:56:22 - a mere three minutes before the free period. Now, with people's clocks all being slightly off, surely this is unacceptable? I have read horror stories about PCNs and how they are, basically, a scam.
I refuse to pay this but am after some advice if anyone has had anything similar? I'm aware that, legally, you do NOT have to pay these fines. Surely this ridiculous 3 minute time difference wouldn't stand up in a civil court?
Any help would be appreciated.
0
Comments
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its not a fine, but for england and wales you must not ignore it
read this https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/48168220 -
Have posted this as per the template:
Address xxxxxxx
12th February 2014
Dear Sirs,
I am the registered keeper of the vehicle registration number xxxx xxx and confirm receipt of your parking charge notice (text removed by MSE Forum Team) dated 09/02/2014 and deny any liability to pay this parking charge.
As you appear to be circumventing the requirements of POFA 2012, the registered keeper is not responsible for this charge, but the driver. I therefore suggest you take this matter up with that person.
The amount claimed constitutes an unlawful penalty, as it is not a genuine pre-estimate of any loss you pretend you have and I further contend that you have no legal authority to pursue any charge.
Now as you are pursuing the wrong person, you are being put on notice that complaints are being prepared to submit to the BPA and DVLA and I suggest that you cancel this parking charge immediately to save further embarrassment.
However should you wish to pursue this matter further, then you are more than welcome to supply a POPLA code which will result in further appeal points raised.
You should be aware that if you either continue to pursue myself as keeper (with or without supplying a POPLA code), then I reserve the right to raise a claim for my costs and time against you at a court rate of £18 per hour. My costs are not exhaustive and will include stationery, stamps, travel expenses and any legal costs etc, and by continuing to pursue me you agree to pay these should I prevail.
In view of the above, I look forward to receiving your written confirmation by return that this parking charge has been cancelled.
Yours faithfully
xxxxxx0 -
Go for it."The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis." - Dante Alighieri0
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CEL don't seem to understand the concept of Grace Periods, which is strange since they have signed up to the BPA Ltd Code of Practice, which stipulates such. They have therefore broken their contract with the DVLA and so have obtained the keeper details unlawfully. A complaint should be lodged with the DVLA.0
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The OP needs to edit his post - parking charge number given - as he's offline perhaps the forum admin can.0
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The_Slithy_Tove wrote: »CEL don't seem to understand the concept of Grace Periods, which is strange since they have signed up to the BPA Ltd Code of Practice, which stipulates such. They have therefore broken their contract with the DVLA and so have obtained the keeper details unlawfully. A complaint should be lodged with the DVLA.
Unfortunately although it states in the BPA COP that a grace period must be allowed, the BPA state this is down to the operator to decide what the grace period is. When asked for a starting point the BPA said they do not have one nor do they recommend one.
Asked BPA AOS what they would deem an acceptable grace period.
As follows!
Dear AOS team
Your code of practice requires your members to give a grace period for someone to enter land controlled by them. Read the signs conveying the conditions of parking to the driver, then for the driver to accept or decline the offer. Then either park or leave the land.
What would be the minimum grace period you would deem acceptable? As if it needs to be just a "Grace period" it could be 10 seconds!
Dear Esmerobbo
Thank you for your e-mail.
Each car park has a different grace period please contact the parking operator concerned and request the information directly from them stating the particular one in question.
Kind regards
AOS Investigation Team
Dear AOS investigation team,
I am not requesting information about a specific operator, however I would assume that if its a condition of complying with your code of practice which I presume is auditable there should be a starting point!
I understand every car park would need its own period setting, but there must be a starting point otherwise as I wrote earlier it could be set in seconds!
Surely if a sign is compliant to convey a contract it must contain certain elements, it then follows that it would not be to difficult to recommend a minimum grace period. Even if it was set to the actual time it would take on average to read the sign.
Assuming you stopped and read a compliant sign at the entrance even before parking it would take a certain amount of time. Otherwise an operator could state grace period 25 seconds after that period a contract would be deemed formed.
If it was the operators decision to set a short grace period then how can someone enter a car park, read the signs decide not to enter offered contract and leave the car park without receiving a parking charge.
Simply stating that you must have a grace period without a minimum is unworkable.
I would hope you could give me a more concise answer.
Regards
Dear Esmerobbo
Thank you for your e-mail.
The time a parking operator allows for the grace period is entirely decided by them. In our Code of Practice when recommend offering a grace period but no recommendation as to what length it should be.
Kind regards
AOS Investigation Team
COP[STRIKE]out[/STRIKE] more like! :cool:0 -
Received my rejection letter today, shock, offering a POPLA code etc so am going to have to through the process. They have asked me to name the driver etc within 28 blah blah.
What happens next? Should I launch my appeal? Or just refuse to give any details?
The important details I will use in my defense are (when it comes to it):
- The car park is free for 20 minutes anyway regardless of the time.
- I arrived at 18:57 and arrived back at 2030.
- From 1900 you get two hours 'free parking'
- According to my clock, it was 1900.
- There has been no grace period whatsoever.
Please help as I don't see many grace period templates on here.0 -
you wont see them because they wont win at POPLA , thats why
you will win on one of 3 points, not a gpeol , no contract and bad signage, usually one of the first two , although you can add this grace period in as an extra point as well
read this https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4816822 especially post #3 and pick an appeal closely matched to your circumstances (but not this time issue)
draft it up in notepad and post a redacted copy on here for checking0 -
boxingbantz wrote: »Received my rejection letter today, shock, offering a POPLA code etc so am going to have to through the process. They have asked me to name the driver etc within 28 blah blah.
What happens next? Should I launch my appeal? Or just refuse to give any details?
The important details I will use in my defense are (when it comes to it):
- The car park is free for 20 minutes anyway regardless of the time.
- I arrived at 18:57 and arrived back at 2030.
- From 1900 you get two hours 'free parking'
- According to my clock, it was 1900.
- There has been no grace period whatsoever.
Please help as I don't see many grace period templates on here.
No do not ignore - this can be quashed at POPLA with a suitable appeal for CEL.
You've missed an important appeal point for CEL - no keeper liablity invoked under POFA .
CEL signage sometimes attempts contractual charges (wording is rubbish mind) - so do not rely on no GPEOL by itself - unlawful penalty needs to be included.
The appeal needs to be written in the third person all the way through as registered keeper and that there is no evidence that the driver formed a contract that day due to inadequate signage etc.
Include grace period as part of no contract formed with driver - read the BPA COP regarding grace periods and reading signage.
Btw I contacted the forum team re your earlier post as you had left in Identifying info - they edited the post for you. When you post up your appeal - redact all this info please. The PPCs do monitor this.
Also that template worked for a number of appeals - the template has also been updated recently as others were not given a POPLA code. Have you checked the POPLA code for its validity?0 -
4consumerrights wrote: »No do not ignore - this can be quashed at POPLA with a suitable appeal for CEL.
You've missed an important appeal point for CEL - no keeper liablity invoked under POFA .
CEL signage sometimes attempts contractual charges (wording is rubbish mind) - so do not rely on no GPEOL by itself - unlawful penalty needs to be included.
The appeal needs to be written in the third person all the way through as registered keeper and that there is no evidence that the driver formed a contract that day due to inadequate signage etc.
Include grace period as part of no contract formed with driver - read the BPA COP regarding grace periods and reading signage.
Btw I contacted the forum team re your earlier post as you had left in Identifying info - they edited the post for you. When you post up your appeal - redact all this info please. The PPCs do monitor this.
Also that template worked for a number of appeals - the template has also been updated recently as others were not given a POPLA code. Have you checked the POPLA code for its validity?
Hi.
Yes I have checked for validity and it seems to be genuine.
What do you mean no keeper liability invoked? A notice to keeper was sent to me (my girlfriend) through the post. It was taken by ANPR and no ticket was placed on dashboard. I am sorry I have done my reading on this but not sure what this means.0
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