Who's to blaim? Our tennants, out letting agents or us?

captainhindsight_2

I would advise letting your property through a firm of chartered surveyors, any yobo can become an estate or letting agent where as chartered surveyors go through years of training before being qualified and have professional standards and will advise you properly on what your responsibilities are as a landlord.

tom9980

They want HMO standards seems strange, it might be a jobs worth council official who is wrong.

However you need to find out where communication broke down, is it the agent or tenant who has not passed on the problems which have been highlighted by the council? You will need to speak personally to tenant and agent to work out who is to blame.

Do remember this is the business of being a landlord.

getmore4less

Maybe they are subletting or not who you think they are.
(has agent changed people since you are away)

Or planning to sublet and need the place up to standard first

Check who the council think are living there

poppysarah

Have the council introduced compulsory licensing in that area? Some have tightened up on all landlords within high-PRS areas.



https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/housing-health-and-safety-rating-system-guidance-for-landlords-and-property-related-professionals

phill99

It sounds like the council inspector is applying the wrong set of regs.

Unless this is a HMO or over 2 storeys, you don't need fire doors. Nor is there a reg requiring hard wired smoke alarms. In trend a of the DG they may be requiring opening restrictors or a fully opening window on the first floor to act as a fire escape.

If you let to the council, they often require these upgrades.

You need to go back to the council and ask them which regs they are relying on. I have a feeling they are applying current building regs, which aren't retrospective.

princeofpounds

You are ultimately responsible for the property, but that does not mean you are at moral fault.

1) I'm completely confused as to why I've received this letter - I've had no requests, no warnings from the tennant or the letting agent. Is this a usual process - is 28 days a legitimate timeframe from hearing about an issue to resolving and paying in full ( have NO idea how to pay for all of this)

You have probably received this letter because the council's environmental health department have performed an inspection under the Housing Health and Safety Rating System.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/hhsrs-operating-guidance-housing-act-2004-guidance-about-inspections-and-assessment-of-hazards-given-under-section-9

This was probably, though not definitely, at the request of the tenant.

Why the tenant may have requested this is uncertain. They may have genuine worries about the safety of the property. Or they may be upset about something and using this as a tool to elevate minor niggles into a headache for you as landlord. It is quite possible that the agent has said or done something to cause this upset. It is also possible that you have done something to cause this upset, perhaps inadvertantly.

For example, I normally advise tenants to look at this procedure as an option where there are problems with cold or damp in the house that the landlord has left for them or is refusing, via their agents, to address.

Why you have not been notified is uncertain. The tenant does not have to notify you. They may well have tried to do so however, via the agent. The agent may have failed to pass on their notification, most likely through neglect but possibly to cover up the situation.

2) If these things were wrong with the house originally - should it be my letting agents who should have not allow us to rent out the property in the first place. None of the things are broken or damaged, they're just not suitable - for example instead of the smoke alarms we have, they want to have hard wired connected through all floors

Agents should be able to advise to some degree on things like this, but as has already been explained they have no professional standing or professional knowledge. But you are utterly responsible for ensuring that your property is safe for rental.

3) Do I have any legal rights to extend or postpone these changes for when I can realistically pay for them which would be one thing a month at a push?

It depends on the format of the communication. If it was not a formal enforcement notice, then you technically may not have to do anything at all.

But if you don't you might get a formal enforcement. And then you will have to do something.

A formal enforcement might not cover all the items in the letter. It sounds to me like some of this is considered best safety practice and not actually legally required. But I'm not expert enough to be able to tell you which is which.

(edit to add: phil99's point is exactly right, it does sound a bit like current building regs which may not be applicable to your property. If it was a building regs inspection that is a different discussion)

4) Does it sound right that someone can rent a house that you've paid a letting agent to be in charge of, and then 2 years later demand you spend thousands.

Yes, if those thousands are required to meet your legal obligations (both in law and in contract) as a landlord. It's not a license to print money with no costs to maintain the business at acceptable standards.

Any help or advice about his would be great - I'm not a property developer, I hired a letting agent to make sure these things didn't happen!

Agents are really nothing more than overblown administrators and marketers. You never have any idea if they are more useful than a bloke in the pub until you employ them and you cannot delegate your responsibilities as a landlord even if you employ one on a full service contract.

Hopefully they are more useful than a bloke in the pub. Most are. But some have the capability to positively damage the landlords who employ them, through greed or incompetence.

I recommend you keep an open mind about this. Contact the agent and ask what they have heard. Contact the tenant and ask them what their view of the situation is. I would be very surprised if you don't get a different story.

And of course speak to the council, as you are doing. Just bear in mind they might want to steer you towards doing as much as possible rather than your basic legal obligations. Be polite, try to understand from them why they are requesting each point.

G_M

I too believe the council is applying the standards required for a HMO (House of Multiple Occupation).

In that case, either

1) the council have made an error and applied the wrong standards - appeal (sorry. I don't know the process)

2) your tenants are sub-letting and have turned the property into a HMO. Evict the tenants. You will then no loger have an HMO and can re-let to another tenant.

In fact, I would serve a S21 immediately anyway.

G_M

princeofpounds wrote: »

You are ultimately responsible for the property, but that does not mean you are at moral fault.



You have probably received this letter because the council's environmental health department have performed an inspection under the Housing Health and Safety Rating System.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/hhsrs-operating-guidance-housing-act-2004-guidance-about-inspections-and-assessment-of-hazards-given-under-section-9

Reading that (well - skim-reading) I note that Annex A (p 37) highlights the landlords responsibilities, which reflects the Landlord & Tenant Act 1985 . Quite where that leaves LLs in relation to the 2004 Act I don't know.

Landlord’s Responsibility
Introduction
A1 For enforcement purposes, the Rating System is concerned with those matters which
can be considered the responsibility of the owner or landlord.
A2 Generally, the landlord (or owner) is responsible for the provision, state and proper
working order of the following
27
:
(a) the exterior and structural elements of the dwelling; and
(b) the installations within and associated with the dwelling for:
i the supply and use of water, gas and electricity;
ii personal hygiene, sanitation and drainage;
iii food safety;
iv ventilation;
v space heating; and
vi heating water.
A3 The landlord (or owner), however, is not responsible for the state of any fixtures or
fittings provided by the occupier unless they have been adopted by the landlord (or
owner) and are not removable. Adoption by the landlord (or owner) can occur on the
change of tenancy where fixtures or fittings provided by the previous occupier remain
at the commencement of the new tenancy.
A4 Although not intended to be an interpretation of the law, the following guidance is
given as an explanation of the landlord’s (or owner’s) responsibilities.
Provision, State and Proper Working Order
A5 The term “provision, state and proper working order” includes:
(a) the provision of the materials and the proper construction of the element;
(b) the provision of the facilities and equipment and their proper installation and
connection;
37
27 This advice is meant to assist in assessments using the HHSRS for enforcement purposes, and is not intended
as an interpretation of the law.
(c) the maintenance of the elements and installation, in a proper state of repair and in
proper working order; and
(d) where necessary, the replacement of obsolete, defective or ineffective elements or
installations.
Exterior and Structural Elements
A6 The words “exterior and structural elements of the dwelling” are not limited to the load-
bearing elements, but include all those elements which give a dwelling its essential
appearance, stability and shape, and those which provide protection from the climate.
It includes, for example, means of access, amenity space, foundations, walls (including
internal plasterwork), roof, windows, doors, and ceilings. While it includes protective
finishes (including paintwork to timber), it does not normally include the internal
surface decoration such as wallpaper and emulsion paint.
Water, Gas and Electricity
A7 The term “installations within or associated with the dwelling for the supply and use of
water” includes the necessary pipework, tanks, cisterns, and taps. The similar term “....
for the supply and use of ... gas” includes the necessary pipework, valves and taps;
and the same term “... for the supply and use of ... electricity” includes the necessary
wiring, sockets, switches and fuses or other safety devices.
A8 These terms are not intended to include any removable equipment or appliances which
use gas or electricity as a source of power, such as refrigerators, washing machines,
audio and visual equipment, portable heaters and light bulbs, unless these are provided
by the landlord.
Personal Hygiene, Sanitation and Drainage
A9 The term “installations within or associated with the dwelling for personal hygiene”
includes the necessary wash hand basins, showers and/or baths. Such facilities should
be properly installed and fitted, including being sealed to adjacent surfaces, provided
with splash-backs and with appropriate supplies of hot and cold water. It also includes
the rooms or compartments where these facilities are installed.
A10 The similar term “... for ... sanitation and drainage” includes wc basins, drains, waste
pipes, rainwater goods, inlet gulleys and inspection chambers.
Food Safety
A11 The term “installations within or associated with the dwelling for food safety” includes
sinks, draining boards, work tops, cooking facilities (or cooker points and space for
cooking facilities), cupboards and/or shelves for cooking and eating utensils and
equipment, and food storage facilities (including socket outlets and space for a
refrigerator).
Housing Health and Safety Rating System
38

princeofpounds

In fact, I would serve a S21 immediately anyway.

I would too in the ordinary course of action, but I would quickly check first of all that your agent hasn't been the cause of some problem here.

SerialRenter

G_M wrote: »

In fact, I would serve a S21 immediately anyway.

The fact that I'm disagreeing with you probably means I'm wrong! but I'll attempt to anyway.

Need more facts first:
Agent could have been treating the tenants in a less then professional manner and disregarded any legitimate maintenance requests.
Tenant is entitled to have a property in good repair, the council should provide a balanced report on any work that needs doing, I agree in this case they went OTT, but i think that should reflect poorly on the council, not the tenants. Or perhaps the council do have additional local licencing that the property needs to comply with.