excel parking pcn fine

nikiq41

hello,

i hope someone on here can offer advice on my situation. I have read the forums on excel parking but cant find the definte answer i need.

i parked in the junction street carpark in Leeds,(the carpark on the right as you turn into crown point) at crown point retail park back in Dec. I left the site for approx 10 mins to get my debit card from my friend who works nearby. I then returned to the crown point to shop. When i returned to my car i had a pcn for £60 stating that i had been seen leaving the site and i had breached the terms of the carpark. I appealed the notice via email, which requires you to enter your name and address. Foolishly i didn't check the internet until now, otherwise i would have known not to give personal details. I explained my reason for leaving the site and enclosed a copy of a receipt from a purchase i made to prove i did shop that day. I have recieved a letter back from excel services only a few days ago. They state that the signs in the carpark clearly state you can't leave the site and because my receipt is for a shop that is by the crown point carpark and not junction street they cant not take that into consideration. The letter also states , I must pay £60 by the 12th or face an increased fine of £100. I am obviously very reluctant to pay as i don't believe it to be a justified fine. Going on other peoples experiences who have ignored the fine , nothing seems to have come of it, however i am worried because they now have my name and address and my pass to a debt collector? Any advice would be gratefully appreciated.

ezerscrooge

Do not ignore it. Excel have 6 years to start any proceddings against you, so many people who think they've 'gone away' could be in for a nasty shock in few years time. The best way to deal with this for good is an appeal to POPLA.

When they rejected your appeal did they gve you a POPLA code? It is a 10 digit numerical number and may be hidden within the appeal rejection letter. If not then write back to them demanding your code.

When you have this, then put yout POPLA appeal together. Use the wording below for the killer POPLA points...

[FONT=&quot]Car Reg : xxxxx[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Location: : xxxxxx[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Date of PCN issue : xxxxxx [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]PCN Number : xxxxxx[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]POPLA Verification Code: xxxxx[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dear POPLA Assessor,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I am the registered Keeper of the above vehicle and I'm writing this to appeal a charge sent to me by YYY[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I would like to appeal this notice on the following grounds: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Charge not a genuine pre-estimate of loss[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Unlawful penalty clause[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]No authority to levy charges[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Business Rates & Business Legitimacy[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Charge not a genuine pre-estimate of loss[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The demand for a payment of £100 is punitive, unreasonable, exceeds an appropriate amount, and has no relationship to the loss that would have been suffered by the Landowner. The YYY signs states that a PCN would be issued for a “failure to comply” with the terms of parking, which indicates that the parking charge represents damages for a breach of the parking contract. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Accordingly, the parking charge must be a genuine pre-estimate of loss. YYY has not provided any evidence as to how and why the parking charge is a genuine pre-estimate of loss. Therefore the parking charge is punitive and an unenforceable penalty charge. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
The BPA Code of Practice states:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“19.5 If the parking charge that the driver is being asked to pay is for a breach of contract or act of trespass, this charge must be based on the genuine pre-estimate of loss that you suffer.“[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]and [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“19.6 If your parking charge is based upon a contractually agreed sum, that charge cannot be punitive or unreasonable. “[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I put YYY to strict proof that that their charge represents a genuine pre-estimate of loss. To date YYY have refused to provide me with a detailed breakdown of how the amount of the “charge” was calculated in the form of documented, specific evidence applicable to this car park and this alleged incident. I am aware from Court rulings and previous POPLA adjudications that the cost of running the business For example, were no breach to have occurred then the cost of parking enforcement (for example, erecting signage, wages, uniforms, office costs) would still have been the same and, therefore, may not be included in this pre-estimate of loss.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I therefore respectfully request that my appeal is upheld and the charge dismissed.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Unlawful penalty clause - revenue for YYY[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Since there was no demonstrable loss/damage and yet a breach of contract has been alleged, this 'charge' can only be an unlawful attempt at dressing up a penalty to impersonate a parking ticket, as was found in the case of Excel Parking Services v Hetherington-Jakeman (2008) also OBServices v Thurlow (review, February 2011), in Parking Eye v Smith (Manchester County Court December 2011) and UKCPS v Murphy (April 2012).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]This transparently punitive charge by YYY is a revenue-raising exercise and is therefore unenforceable in law. YYY's own website is damning in this regard. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]So this is (as is proven by the Operator's own website) a revenue-raising scheme disguised as a 'parking ticket' - so in fact it is an unenforceable penalty.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I therefore respectfully request that my appeal is upheld and the charge dismissed.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]No authority to levy charges[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]A parking management company will need to have the proper legal authorisation to contract with the consumer on the landowner’s behalf and enforce for breach of contract.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]YYY must produce evidence to demonstrate that it is the landowner, or a contract that it has the authority of the landowner to issue charge notices at this location. I believe there is no contract with the landowner/occupier that entitles YYY to levy these charges and to pursue these charges in their own name as creditor in the Courts and therefore has no authority to issue charge notices.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
I put YYY to strict proof to POPLA that they have the necessary legal authorisation at this location and I demand that the YYY produce to POPLA the contemporaneous and unredacted contract between the landowner and YYY. Even if a basic contract is produced and mentions PCNs, the lack of ownership or assignment of title or interest in the land reduces any contract to one that exists simply on an agency basis between YYY and the owner/occupier, containing nothing that YYY can lawfully use in their own name as a mere agent, that could impact on a third party customer. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It has also been widely reported that some parking companies have provided “witness statements” instead of the relevant contract. There is no proof whatsoever that the alleged signatory on behalf of the landowner has ever seen the relevant contract, or, indeed is even an employee of the landowner. I require, if such a witness statement is submitted, that it is accompanied by a letter, on landowner’s headed notepaper, and signed by a director or equivalent of the landowner, confirming that the signatory is, indeed, authorised to act on behalf of the landowner, has read and the relevant terms of the contract and is qualified to attest to the full limit of authority of the parking company[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
I therefore respectfully request that my appeal is upheld and the charge dismissed.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4. Business Rates & Business Legitimacy[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]As this car park is now being used for the purpose of running a business by YYY, which is entirely separate from any other businesses the car park services, and generates revenue and profit for YYY, I do not believe that YYY has the necessary planning permission or have declared the running of their business venture at this location to the Local Valuation Office and Local Authority for the purpose of the payment of Business Rates.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
I put YYY to strict proof that the necessary planning permission is in place, and that they have registered the business they are operating at xxxxxxxxxx with the Valuation Office and to provide proof that Business Rates are being paid to the Local Authority, or to provide proof or explanation of their exemption from such Business Rates. Failure to do so indicates that they are not operating a legitimate business from the premises.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I therefore respectfully request that my appeal is upheld and the charge dismissed.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This concludes my appeal.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Kind regards[/FONT]

nikiq41

Thank you so much for responding, yes they have provided me with a popla verification code. However they have stated that if my appeal isn't successful the fine will increase to £100 and i may incur additional recovery costs. I am worried that popla may reject my appeal becasue technically by leaving the site i have breeched the conditions of the car park. Have you experienced a similar situation yourself?

fisherjim

It's not a fine, and how have the scamming PPC's lost £100 for you leaving site?
Read this sticky first https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4816822

nikiq41

exactly fisherjim, i don't understand how they can but as ive never had this type of fine before i don't know what they can enforce?

Umkomaas

I wouldn't worry about whether it's £60 or £100, as with help from us here (and via POPLA) you won't be paying anything.

You need to make full use if your POPLA opportunity by reading the 'NEWBIES, read this first' sticky at the top of the forum index and the 'POPLA Decisions' sticky then drafting out your appeal and posting it here for appraisal and fine tuning. With the use of the correct phraseology (all contained in the links above) it can be like shooting fish in a barrel.

You might also like to read this. And to note particularly that VCS is a sister company and therefore Excel should know the score in relation to 'mitigation of losses' (not that they have any losses - but that's another story!).

http://notomob.co.uk/discussions/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2793.0;attach=2873

Come back with your POPLA draft.

ezerscrooge

It's not a fine, just a speculative invoice.

It does not matter what you do to 'breach the terms of parking' you'll not be fighting it on what you have or have not done but on clear contractural failings on the part of the PPC, hence the specific wording of the appeal to POPLA.

You'll win and you'll pay them nothing. I have and so does everyone else who follows the advice given here where the PPC claims breach of contract.

So waste no more time and get your POPLA appeal in using the template I've given you.

nikiq41

Thanks for the link fisherjim, in my appeal email to excel i didn't ask for a pre-estimate charge of loss so i cant appeal to popla and state i haven't been provided with this can i?

Umkomaas

nikiq41 wrote: »

Thanks for the link fisherjim, in my appeal email to excel i didn't ask for a pre-estimate charge of loss so i cant appeal to popla and state i haven't been provided with this can i?

Please don't worry about that, you need to plough on with your POPLA appeal. Nothing you've corresponded on previously will have any relevance at POPLA. All that will matter is getting the right form of words (as FJ has helpfully provided - just make sure that nothing in it is contradictory to your situation) and you're more than half-way there.

nikiq41

ok thanks everyone for your advice and links, i will put together my appeal tomorrow and post on here for proof reading before i submit

Coupon-mad

Please do not forget this. I hope you have read the NEWBIES thread and clicked on the hyperlink in post #3 of it called 'How to win at POPLA'. The link was given to you by fisherjim and should answer your POPLA queries.

Please stop worrying - we win 100% of POPLA appeals and you will too. You won't pay a penny. Read the examples under the link and show us your draft!