Civil Enforcement Ltd - can they pursue RK?

Frannybobs

Hi

I have done a lot of reading on these MSE Forums, the Newbies thread and all mentioning Civil Enforcement Ltd...and also scoured PePiPoo and there is something I'm unclear on - PoFA and whether CEL can invoke it.

I am asking this for a friend and without wanting to identify them or any details - received a "Parking Charge Notice" to the keeper of the vehicle for overstaying in the car park, it IS within the 14 days (date of incident 28/01/14) but they do not specifically mention PoFA anywhere on the PCN itself.

They say at the bottom in the small print...

"It is the driver's responsibility to pay this PCN. If you were not the drive you may pay this PCN or provide us with the name and current address for service of the drvier and pass on this PCN to the drvier. In England and Wales if after 28 days from the Issue Date this PCN has not been paid or you have not provided us with the name and current address for service of the driver, we may have the right to recover from the Registered Keeper all unpaid amounts due"

Is the "in England and Wales" bit the bit indirectly referring to PoFA and what they would pursue with. If we do not provide driver's details and therefore they don't have a driver to pursue, can they legally make the Registered Keeper responsible?

If you need any further information to help advise, please let me know.

Kind regards,
Fran

Coupon-mad

No, is the short answer, they cannot!

We know CEL don't issue POFA2012 compliant Notices (they tried, failed and gave up and went back to 'old-rules' driver versions!).

It is all covered (and CEL are mentioned and the above specifically said about their Notices) in the NEWBIES thread, near the top. Your friend should also quickly complain by email to the Co-op CEO or whoever the onsite retailer was in his/her case.

Both advice threads are linked in this reply:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/64274803#Comment_64274803

Just edited to add your friend should also email the DVLA and BPA to complain about this wording appearing on a classic 'NON-POFA' ticket as it is completely and utterly a lie if CEL are still saying this:

''In England and Wales if after 28 days from the Issue Date this PCN has not been paid or you have not provided us with the name and current address for service of the driver, we may have the right to recover from the Registered Keeper all unpaid amounts due"

Email addies for the Managers at the BPA and DVLA are in both the linked sticky threads on that link above. A few PPCs were temporarily banned by the DVLA, for claiming keeper liability when there was none, in 2012. This is worse in a way as they are making it look like a POFA 2012 ticket.

HTH

HO87

CEL have a rake of other conditions they must fulfil to be able to invoke keeper liability not just simply mentioning POFA, albeit indirectly, and serving a PCN (i.e. a Notice to Keeper) within 14 days. Take a look at this (it looks a bit daunting but sets out what they must do).

That said your friend would be advised to make an initial appeal to CEL. Such appeals are inevitably rejected by CEL but they must provide a POPLA reference. We can help your friend make that appeal and win it.

Dealing direct with your friend is a lot easier than Chinese whispers by the way.

bod1467

HO87 wrote: »

Dealing direct with your friend is a lot easier than Chinese whispers by the way.

I'll put it more bluntly - get your friend to register and post here so they can be helped directly.

Unless of course your friend is "your friend" i.e. you.

Frannybobs

Thanks both - I did look through the conditions of PoFA and I couldn't see what makes it that CEL don't comply as they seem to have done everything set out as far as I could see, within timescales, timestamps etc. That's where I'm getting confused, how I can prove that they aren't following PoFA and therefore we are not obliged to give them driver details.

I have a scan of the PCN - if that is of any use, if anyone can help me pinpoint where they aren't PoFA compliant? I would obviously blank out any identifiable data...

Many thanks again, I did read all those threads but none seemed to exactly tie to this particularly situation, in that it is within the 14 days (many CEL ones weren't).

Fran

Frannybobs

bod1467 wrote: »

I'll put it more bluntly - get your friend to register and post here so they can be helped directly.

Unless of course your friend is "your friend" i.e. you.

My friend is a close friend so I have all the docs, and I'm a bit more savvy on this stuff - only reason I'm posting and not them! Sorry, should have made it sound less suspicious!

HO87

Frannybobs wrote: »

Thanks both - I did look through the conditions of PoFA and I couldn't see what makes it that CEL don't comply as they seem to have done everything set out as far as I could see, within timescales, timestamps etc. That's where I'm getting confused, how I can prove that they aren't following PoFA and therefore we are not obliged to give them driver details.

I have a scan of the PCN - if that is of any use, if anyone can help me pinpoint where they aren't PoFA compliant? I would obviously blank out any identifiable data...

Many thanks again, I did read all those threads but none seemed to exactly tie to this particularly situation, in that it is within the 14 days (many CEL ones weren't).

Fran

Don't get too hung up on whether they have complied or not. Our experience suggest that CEL haven't done so until now and, frankly, are unlikely to have changed their ways. The fact is that you can appeal and not have to pay a penny.

Coupon-mad

No need for a scan of the PCN.

That's where I'm getting confused, how I can prove that they aren't following PoFA and therefore we are not obliged to give them driver details.

Have a look at paragraph 9 of POFA 2012 (if it was a postal PCN and no windscreen ticket alleged). There is other wording they must have included, not just that sentence.

Frannybobs

Coupon-mad wrote: »

No need for a scan of the PCN.


Have a look at paragraph 9 of POFA 2012 (if it was a postal PCN and no windscreen ticket alleged). There is other wording they must have included, not just that sentence.

As far as I can see they've included everything from paragraph 9 of Section 4 of PoFA 2012...maybe they've smartened up their act? :eek:

Coupon-mad

OK, show us both sides of it, as they were not using these at all recently. Host the photos on tinypic or photobucket and break the link by removing the http:// and putting a gap in (as you are still a newb).

By they way it matters not, you will still win at POPLA. Just interesting info, that's all.

Frannybobs

Coupon-mad wrote: »

OK, show us both sides of it, as they were not using these at all recently. Host the photos on tinypic or photobucket and break the link by removing the http:// and putting a gap in (as you are still a newb).

By they way it matters not, you will still win at POPLA. Just interesting info, that's all.

Thanks I'll get my hands on the PCN tomorrow and scan both sides in, as I've only seen the front up to now (it was scanned in and sent to me by my friend). Interesting to know it should win at POPLA anyway.

Is it worth mentioning the gross disporpotionality of the fine as opposed to their losses (as mentioned in the forums)? Or keep it short and sweet and just focus on the PoFA side of it (if can)?