Athena parking charge

fairyweb

hi, ive been reading lots (!) of advice and forums about being given a parking charge these last few days. I have a massive headache, and cant take any more in right now...so although i have more to read, could someone give an opinion on what i have drafted as my first reply to athena please? Im running out of time and want to get it sent off. many thanks

I am writing as the registered keeper of the vehicle ****** , and in reference to your invoice I received recently.

I would like to appeal against this. The main reasons, but not limited to, for doing so are as follows:


I was a genuine customer of the Lidl's store at the time, and as such will not be penalised for overstaying by a few minutes.


I believe that the said 10 minutes is a 'reasonable' time to allow customers to vacate the premises, as required by the BPA


You have no legal authority to make these charges.


This amounts to nothing more than a punitive, unfair and disproportionate charge in regard to the supposed 'loss' involved. Which in the case of a free car park, is nil. This is also the amount I can be asked to pay in 'compensation'. your charge is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss.

clarification on the unfairness of such charges can be found in the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977.


I could go on.


Do you use any other alternative dispute resolution ?

can you clarify for me if this claim is for a breach of contract, or is it a contractual charge?

are you working within the legal framework provided by the traffic management act?


In the meantime I will seek advice on this well known issue, and read up on the BPA code of practice, both for parts relevant to drivers, and for those your company have to follow, and other relevant documents such as trading standards and office of fair trading. I have instigated communications with the head office (your employers) of the store in regard to this matter, asking them particular questions concerning your company, and the wording used on your website, the profits made from parking charges etc, and informed them of how I intend to proceed with this.



Please forward me my PoPLA code if this is rejected. Thankyou

I hope this works as ive never posted before

Redx

seems daft to me as you are naming yourself as driver

please read this https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4816822

then use this typical template and adapt it if required but using the third party option, the driver did this blah blah as a 4) if you think it needs a 4th option

the point being to get a popla code and spank them at popla (or a cancellation of course

popla is the ADR

Dear Athena,

As the registered keeper of (reg) I'm in receipt of your parking invoice xxxxxx dated xxxxxx. I wish to invoke your appeals process as all liability to your company is denied on the following:

1) this charge is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss
2) your signage does not comply with the BPA Code of Practice
3) you do not have the authority or permission to issue invoices at this location

These points and others will be raised with Popla should you not accept this appeal, and you will be expected to provide a full breakdown of of your alleged loss, and your full unredacted contract with the landowner.

If you do reject the challenge and insist upon taking the matter further I must inform you that I may claim my expenses from you. The expenses I may claim are not exhaustive but may include the cost of stamps, envelopes, travel expenses, legal fees, etc. By continuing to pursue me you agree to pay these costs when I prevail.

Please issue your cancellation within 35 days of this letter or supply a popla code to appeal to them.

Any communication that does not either confirm cancellation or include a POPLA verification code shall be reported to the BPA as a breach of their Code of Practice - the BPA recently issued guidance to all members to remind them of this fact. Such communication may also be deemed harassment and pursued accordingly.


Faithfully

its a private car park so some of your questions were irrelevant too

Coupon-mad

Yep I was going to say it's pointless to say 'I am the registered keeper' and then throw that strong appeal position away by saying who was driving! You could use your version of appeal if you change it to 'The driver was a genuine customer...'

And I wouldn't have these questions:

Do you use any other alternative dispute resolution ? YOU KNOW THEY USE POPLA, AFTER ALL, YOU SAY SO LATER ON!

can you clarify for me if this claim is for a breach of contract, or is it a contractual charge? THAT DEPENDS ON THE SIGN - PLEASE SHOW US A PICTURE

are you working within the legal framework provided by the traffic management act? IRRELEVANT COUNCIL REGS

Finally with Athena I would add in a basic appeal point or two like 'The driver did not see any signs restricting the time, and you appear to have no publicised 'grace period' which is a breach of the BPA code of practice. You are also a mere agent with no legal standing to make contracts with drivers at all so any sign you may say you have on site would not change this fact.'

fairyweb

thanks guys, wow. This is the trouble with reading so much advice, it starts to conflict! The questions and points I raised are suggestions from other people, and seemed valid to me. For example, there are other methods of ADR than PoPLA,; the form of charge they claim to be operating under can affect my argument, or indeed, pretty much decide if they are operating illegally on that point alone. Im not on my pc at the moment so I dont have my references to hand to show you. Also it was my intention to try and stop this and actually get an agreement, I know it does happen sometimes! But I concur, this is the forum I have chosen to seek advice from, and I will have another go. I do not have a picture at the moment, but it is the same as the one posted on pepipo.com. I will take one soon if needed. I noticed that below the sign in the actual car park is another sign that says the cameras are there to stop criminal activity and damage. at the risk of being shot down in flames - is there a way that could perhaps be used, a long shot perhaps. thanks again

Redx

the one thing you are failing to take into account is that these companies have seen it all before, many times, also that they just want their £100 and dont care how they get it, so rarely cancel and appeal , whatever the reason

they dont have any care or compassion, do not care about you and just want their pound of flesh and will find any reason to get it, they wont admit that their signs are flawed, or that they do not have a valid contract or a valid authority to pursue motorists

once you understand this and decide that you will fight the pcn on legal grounds instead of trying to find a mis-spelling in their sign or the fact its not lit at 2100 or some other clever "go-around" the sooner you realise that its popla where you beat them in 98% of cases

PE are known to cancel charges where people have paid a lot of money to shop owners, probably because they dont want the landowners moaning at them, not because some RK has sent in an appeal worthy of a barrister being the owner

the advice given on here is changed and refined on a monthly basis to counter any changes or due to experience of seeing cases win or lose, analysing them as to why this happened and learning because of it

Coupon-mad

fairyweb wrote: »

I noticed that below the sign in the actual car park is another sign that says the cameras are there to stop criminal activity and damage. at the risk of being shot down in flames - is there a way that could perhaps be used, a long shot perhaps. thanks again

It might be relevant at POPLA stage because we have a 'ANPR compliance' paragraph people normally use as one of MANY at POPLA stage. But no need now. As I said, this is pretty easy! You could use your version of appeal if you change it to 'The driver was a genuine customer...' {the problem with yours is you said 'I'!}.

Finally (as I also added below) with Athena I would add in a basic appeal point or two like 'The driver did not see any signs restricting the time, and you appear to have no publicised 'grace period' which is a breach of the BPA code of practice. You are also a mere agent with no legal standing to make contracts with drivers at all so any sign you may say you have on site would not change this fact.'

The reason is to stop Athena playing a card they've tried before 'there are no appeal points in your letter so we haven't treated it as an appeal'!

fairyweb

ok i have the standard rejection letter back from athena, along with a popla code. I am going to do some reading of course, but if anyone wants to help me out with an appeal i would be most grateful

Coupon-mad

You just need 'How to win at POPLA' in the NEWBIES sticky thread.

fairyweb

Coupon-mad wrote: »

You just need 'How to win at POPLA' in the NEWBIES sticky thread.

i wish it was that easy! still feeling all :huh: and going round in circles. is there a simple template/draft popla letter that i can go straight to and adapt? preferably one that has been written by someone who knows what they are talking about? its actually easy to see that a large number of the pcn's probably get paid at this stage simply because people dont have the time or the stamina to do this. where or what is this ANPR compliance paragraph that was mentioned please? thanks a lot, please dont shout at me

Redx

plenty if you look at post #3 of the NEWBIES thread and click on the HOW TO WIN blue words inside it, this brings up a page full of examples and templates

Welsh_Exile

fairyweb wrote: »

i wish it was that easy! still feeling all :huh: and going round in circles. is there a simple template/draft popla letter that i can go straight to and adapt? preferably one that has been written by someone who knows what they are talking about? its actually easy to see that a large number of the pcn's probably get paid at this stage simply because people dont have the time or the stamina to do this. where or what is this ANPR compliance paragraph that was mentioned please? thanks a lot, please dont shout at me

Don't worry about the ANPR thing too much - you will win without it. If you don't understand it, leave it out.

The "big three" appeal points are

1. The amount claimed by the PPC is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss.
2. The PPC does not have the legal right to make the charges and take drivers/keepers to court - ie they are not the landowner and any contract with the landowner will not contain the necessary terms.
3. The signage was insufficient to form a contract with the driver (sometimes it is, often it isn't).

It is all explained in the excellent Newbie sticky written by Coupon-mad. There may well be other appeal points relating to ANPR, compliance with POPLA re keeper liability etc which are worth including, but you should make sure you understand all the points you include.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4816822