Why Germans Love Renting Their Homes

ruggedtoast

CLAPTON wrote: »

Germany has a similar level of housing wealth as the UK; in Germany however it is all concentrated in large companies and not distributed amoungst the majority of ordinary people.

There is very little public ownership in Germany.


I'm unaware that countries with lower owner occupiers tend to be richer. Is there evidence to support this?

A couple of weeks travelling around Germany then coming back to Britain would be all the evidence you would need to support that.

I don't need a thermometer to tell me it's a sunny day. Germany is a beautiful clean country with excellent public services, populated by happy well balanced people who enjoy plenty of disposable income and a cheerful outlook in life.

They have excellent public transport, nice houses, good health, employment rights and food, low crime and clean orderly cities, and they consistently rank quality of life far higher than Brits do.


If you can find some league table that quantifies Britain as being economically superior to the UK then all that tells me is that the metric is measuring the wrong thing.

It's the same as the UK vs Germany universities debate. Germany doesn't have a single world leading university yet continues to train graduates who march straight into the German technology and engineering companies that have pretty much either wiped out or bought out their British competitors run by graduates from the Manchesters and UCLs.

zagubov

ruggedtoast wrote: »

A couple of weeks travelling around Germany then coming back to Britain would be all the evidence you would need to support that.

I don't need a thermometer to tell me it's a sunny day. Germany is a beautiful clean country with excellent public services, populated by happy well balanced people who enjoy plenty of disposable income and a cheerful outlook in life.

They have excellent public transport, nice houses, good health, employment rights and food, low crime and clean orderly cities, and they consistently rank quality of life far higher than Brits do.


If you can find some league table that quantifies Britain as being economically superior to the UK then all that tells me is that the metric is measuring the wrong thing.

It's the same as the UK vs Germany universities debate. Germany doesn't have a single world leading university yet continues to train graduates who march straight into the German technology and engineering companies that have pretty much either wiped out or bought out their British competitors run by graduates from the Manchesters and UCLs.

Exactly what it seems like to me. The Germans don't usually own their housing; however they live in great housing until they die. Then their kids then live in great housing until they die. And so on.

Why does anybody think that's odd?

antrobus

ruggedtoast wrote: »

.....This seems to be quite normal in Germany........Council stock is plentiful and high quality,....

That's odd, because Germany has less social housing; only 6% of stock compared to 20% in the UK.

http://www.jrf.org.uk/publications/british-social-rented-housing-european-context

Of course, the "plentiful" nature of housing in Germany, might have something to do with a falling population?

The reality is that the German population is shrinking and towns like this one are working hard to hide the emptiness. Mr. Voigt has already supervised the demolition of 60 houses and 12 apartment blocs, strategically injecting grassy patches into once-dense complexes.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/14/world/europe/germany-fights-population-drop.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

CLAPTON

ruggedtoast wrote: »

A couple of weeks travelling around Germany then coming back to Britain would be all the evidence you would need to support that.

I don't need a thermometer to tell me it's a sunny day. Germany is a beautiful clean country with excellent public services, populated by happy well balanced people who enjoy plenty of disposable income and a cheerful outlook in life.

They have excellent public transport, nice houses, good health, employment rights and food, low crime and clean orderly cities, and they consistently rank quality of life far higher than Brits do.


If you can find some league table that quantifies Britain as being economically superior to the UK then all that tells me is that the metric is measuring the wrong thing.

It's the same as the UK vs Germany universities debate. Germany doesn't have a single world leading university yet continues to train graduates who march straight into the German technology and engineering companies that have pretty much either wiped out or bought out their British competitors run by graduates from the Manchesters and UCLs.

it clearly shows the superiority of private housing provision (including BTL)

and the economic benefit of no national minimum wage

and the more private industry focus of the Germans where people aspire to work for private industry rather than the state and where profit isn't a dirty word

Jason74

CLAPTON wrote: »

I'm unaware that countries with lower owner occupiers tend to be richer. Is there evidence to support this?

I don't think owner occupation rates are in themselves the issue to be fair. It's more about an attitude to housing and what it's perceived to be for. In Germany, Housing is valued primarily for the function it fulfills in providing homes for people. In the UK, housing is seen at least as much as a financial instrument as a functional item. This in turn creates a very different approach.

This is reflected in the very different structures of tenancies in the two countries. Indeed, the issue of whether German tenancies are private or social is largely a red herring. Most German tenancies are structured in a way that far more closely reflect a British social tenancy than the typical assured shorthold private arrangement in the UK. This in turn reflects the German idea that the most important party in a tenancy agreement is the user of the property, whereas the British model tends to give priority to the owner of the asset.

The German model is imho by far the better of the two, and brings about many of the positive benefits that Rugged refers to in his post. We would imho be far better off as a society if we adopted the German approach to tenancies, with a significant shift in the "balance of power" away from landlords and towards tenants (this would probably make the current UK BTL model unsustainable, which would also be no bad thing). We'd also be far better off imho if we adopted some of the other "German" approaches that come from ths "function over finance" way of thinking such as the clear view that the finance industry is teh servant of the wider economy rather than the master of it.

CLAPTON

Jason74 wrote: »

I don't think owner occupation rates are in themselves the issue to be fair. It's more about an attitude to housing and what it's perceived to be for. In Germany, Housing is valued primarily for the function it fulfills in providing homes for people. In the UK, housing is seen at least as much as a financial instrument as a functional item. This in turn creates a very different approach.

This is reflected in the very different structures of tenancies in the two countries. Indeed, the issue of whether German tenancies are private or social is largely a red herring. Most German tenancies are structured in a way that far more closely reflect a British social tenancy than the typical assured shorthold private arrangement in the UK. This in turn reflects the German idea that the most important party in a tenancy agreement is the user of the property, whereas the British model tends to give priority to the owner of the asset.

The German model is imho by far the better of the two, and brings about many of the positive benefits that Rugged refers to in his post. We would imho be far better off as a society if we adopted the German approach to tenancies, with a significant shift in the "balance of power" away from landlords and towards tenants (this would probably make the current UK BTL model unsustainable, which would also be no bad thing). We'd also be far better off imho if we adopted some of the other "German" approaches that come from ths "function over finance" way of thinking such as the clear view that the finance industry is teh servant of the wider economy rather than the master of it.

do you also think that no national minimum wage show the better structural way the germans think about things?


whatever evidence do you have to say that the BLT model would be unsustainable if the tenancy laws were similar here as there?

you think it a good idea that tenants have to pay a substantial sum upfront (to pay for things like kitchens (not included in the rental) when taking out a tenancy; that they have to reinstate the property as found (no ware and tear allowed)?

Germans rent for one simple reason: mortgages are hard to get over there which is why owner occupation is largely limited to the rich and the old

German Landlord rent for one simple reason : to make money just like they make car.

silverwhistle

Whilst everything you say can't be disputed Jason (et al), there are also more obligations on German tenants, and if you spoke to a german social housing tenant in the UK you'd probably find they were shocked by what is permitted (or not enforced on...) by their co-tenants.

So, as a landlord who rented to a housing association (at less than market rent) for a 7 year period, I can say I would never again. The tenant (as they had with a previous property) showed no care or responsibility to a very well found property. So when you talk about the German model, there should be a few other matters taken into account.

I'd also point out out that my years abroad were in Italy, where, as a good tenant I didn't have an increase in rent for 7 years. You might like to consider why that was, and why there are so many empty properties in Italy that _could_ be rented, but where the landlord thinks it not worth the bother.

So, a balance of power shift towards certain tenants would no doubt be a good thing: but bear in mind that that is not a universal situation.

Blacklight

With pensions the way they are in the UK you won't be able to rent once you retire in future. How does the German model work for pensioners?

boatman

The German model works for pensioners, just like most other things in Germany, its a mentality. The laws work, everyone follows the rules, no one is trying to milk the system, everyone is happy, the system works...
Sadly in this country the top and bottom of society try every trick in the book to get round the laws and the majority suffer, me, me, me.
The Germans work better as a collective, they expect a high standard from everyone, their transport, schools public services work. Everyone does their part and this permeates through to the population as a whole.. Sadly here now playing the fool is celebrated.

CLAPTON

boatman wrote: »

The German model works for pensioners, just like most other things in Germany, its a mentality. The laws work, everyone follows the rules, no one is trying to milk the system, everyone is happy, the system works...
Sadly in this country the top and bottom of society try every trick in the book to get round the laws and the majority suffer, me, me, me.
The Germans work better as a collective, they expect a high standard from everyone, their transport, schools public services work. Everyone does their part and this permeates through to the population as a whole.. Sadly here now playing the fool is celebrated.

you forgot to mention that Germans have a higher level of state pension that the UK
... you know the sort of pension that's 'unaffordable' in the UK but appears OK in the paradise that is Germany.