Inheritance Tax: Save £100,000s with simple advanced planning Article Discussion

moon-pig_2

Hi Kirt,

I understand from the experiences of one or two acquaintances that the initial trust administration could cost easily in excess of £1000 - more if the lawyers deal with the probate as well. Then there's the annual meetings to consider (will the lawyers be involved in that too?) as well as preparing accounts (unless the trusts contains solely a share of the home).

And of course when the trust is brought to an end there'll be a chunky fee for that too. As in most cases lawyers will be necessary, having a discretionary trust is therefore likely to be a costly experience.

Of course before last October that would have been a necessary evil to save up to £120,000 in inheritance tax, but unless your circumstances still merit this arrangement there's better alternatives.

A will should in any case be reviewed periodically and so now is probably a good a time as any.

solomonp

Thanks Moon Pig for the link to the will writing firm you used. Any idea why their web address is .nr (Norway?) Also when I put their address post cde (31 Rusthall Avenue, London W4 1BW) in the aerial mapping facility on the estate agent site 'Rightmove' it looks like a private housing estate.

Truth_Hunter

Hi Solomonp,

I was wondering the same too.

I suspect that Moon-Pig is actually Localhero, in disguise - and trying to promote his/her own website by claiming to be a 'user' of the will-writer's services. Sneaky, if true - and against the forum rules.

Around the 14th December 2007 Localhero's posts, which were frequent up until that particular time, virtually stopped overnight.

According to the User's CP Moon-Pig joined the forum on the 7th December 2007. Clicking of his/her list of posts you will see that by far the majority of posts have related to will-writing - and s/he posts with the same authority and style as Localhero. Moon-pig claims to have gained and retained all this information from his will-writer during his/her interview with them - (Localhero I guess) - or from one or two acquaintances.

I noticed some time ago Moon-pig frequently recommended Localhero's website .... that was up until a couple of days ago anyway, when suddenly all the references to Localhero's website were changed to https://www.!!!!!!!!!.co.uk http://www.!!!!!!!!!.co.uk. (Has someone reported Moon-Pig for abuse of the forum rules?) Anyway, within 48 hours of the change I noticed with interest Moon-Pig had re-edited most his/her posts, removing any reference to the website - with two exceptions - one of which you have spotted. The Norway URL redirects you back to the same website as was originally recommended by Moon-Pig, and is Localhero's.

If you look back to Localhero's first posts on the forum it would appear he/she tried then to promote his/her own website.

Further proof that Moon-Pig and Localhero are one and the same? Why would Moon-pig re-edit his/her posts to show a none UK web address for his service provider? I'd smell a rat if , as a customer, I had my posts edited by the forum controllers and then I was requested to quote a different e-mail address by my supplier.

We await Localhero's (or should that read Moon-pigs) explanation with interest.

localhero

Truth-hunter,

You have such a fertile imagination don't you? And for a first time poster you certainly seem to have taken a keen interest in my activities. Do I have my first on-line stalker!?!

Admittedly in my early days on this forum before I became accustomed to the forum etiquette, I did make one or two unauthorised plugs (mostly for the Institute of Professional Willwriters of which I declare myself a member out of about 500 nationwide). And let's keep things in perspective that's in almost 250+ posts.

And in any case I've already held my hands up, and as soon I became aware of this misdemeanour I immediately stopped (and in fact they've been removed completely now).

I have been very busy recently and haven't contributed much to the forum, but in answer to your question, no I'm not Moon-pig nor do I know or care who Moon-pig is. I am obviously very grateful to him for using my firm's services and recommending me to others, but this isn't out of the ordinary. Many forum users have benefited from my firm's services and recommended me to others (as have most of my clients in fact).

I cannot vouch for what he's said or done, but he's factually correct in what he says - so I'm pleased that he's able to pass on any good advice he's received.

So please don't think of becoming a detective or entering the law as your knowledge of the rules of evidence is rather weak. You're also a pathetic coward. If you aspire to be a willwriter, (which I suspect), then perhaps you ought to join the professionals at the Institute of Professional Willwriters. Beware though their standards are very high.

So my friend you're barking up the wrong tree. Perhaps in the meantime you might like to take a closer look around this forum for there's plenty of real pluggers (quite blatant too so they should be easy to spot). They really don't bother me, for they're quite insignificant - like you really.

betheebee

Posted in the wrong place sorry

localhero

And Honeymooner had the gall to suggest that Martin Lewis runs a feature on Willwriting!

I agree. And Martin Lewis should perhaps state the following facts:

1) 92% of consumers don't realise that the law allows anybody to be a willwriter. That is without any formal training or qualifications whatsoever.

2) 77% of consumers want willwriters to be regulated.

3) The Institute of Professional Willwriters is the only willwriting organisation that requires its members to pass examinations in willwriting and must receive regular ongoing training.

4) The IPW is at the forefront of campaigning for the regulation of willwriters and is in the process of seeking approval from the Office of Fair Trading for its code of conduct that its 500+ members must adhere to.

5) Solicitors do not have to pass any exams in willwriting as part of their studies or training.

6) Banks will often offer a free Will as part of an account package but will usually appoint themselves as your executor (approximate cost to a person with a modest estate of around £500,000 = £25,000). There is little chance of face to face advice or your Will being tailored to your individual circumstances either - more likely a form to fill in.

The firms promoted by Honeymooner (and many other willwriting companies out there - i.e Trust Inheritance discussed elsewhere) may promote their services with a special offer on a Will (£49 etc), but will seek to persuade naive and anxious people that their firm should be appointed as executors to their estate.

Therefore the little old lady with a cottage in the Cotswolds (a favourite haunt of Honeymooner) worth £500,000 can expect to pay £8750 + VAT for this 'peace of mind'. And if she leaves her house in trust for her relatives then her estate will kiss goodbye to over ten grand every single year.

That Will (price not specified on the websites) suddenly has got a lot more expensive.

So I agree with Honeymooner in one way, let the facts be known to the subscribers to this forum, that appointing dishonest and unethical operators with their 'cheap/special offers' will cost them a great deal of money in the long run.

Solicitors with their vague fee structures and banks with their exorbitant fees need not remain the default choice for consumers requiring their Wills.

The IPW have over 500 members around the UK that are all qualified, regulated and insured that offer a professional ethical service. (I declare my interest as a member.)

Let's hope Martin writes an article at his earliest convenience so that his subscribers requiring Wills are no longer ripped off by unscrupulous operators.

betheebee

This forum is better than Eastdeadenders !! There'll be tears before bedtime.

sloughflint

betheebee wrote: »

This forum is better than Eastdeadenders !! There'll be tears before bedtime.

Ha Ha.
On a serious note, I have regularly read most threads on IHT including this one.

There seem to be two regular trustworthy contributors: Willman Rodders and Localhero. Both belong to different organisations.
Would either like to comment on which one is better if at all in view of the fact that solicitors apart from being expensive also have no requirement to take exams?

Willman_Rodders

Localhero is a member of the Institute of Professional Will Writers (IPW). I am a member of the Society of Will Writers and Estate Planners (SWW). Other will writers could be members of these organisations or of the Law Society (LS), and/or the Society of Estate Practitioners (STEP). Some will writers are not a member of any organisation or professional body.

Each organisation offers its membership different features and benefits. Each organisation would like to claim that it is superior to the others, and that its members offer professional will writing services to the highest level of integrity - that out perform those services provided by members of other organisations and those will writers who choose not to become a member of any organisation.

To evidence competence the IPW and STEP insist upon all their members taking an external exam to show competence. The SWW insists all its members either pass an exam (to show level of competence) or they hold other relevant external exam qualifications. The Law Society have extensive exams - but according to Localhero - may not include any training on drafting a will. But passing an exam is only evidence of a prescribed level of knowledge at the time the exam was taken.

STEP [I perceive] has the highest level of training requirements of any of the organisations listed above when dealing with estate and trust law.

Being a member of any of these above organisation therefore requires a basic level of competence to be demonstrated. However, within each organisation some members will have just the basic level of competence, some members will have extensive knowledge - gained by further study and experience, and others who have allowed their knowledge base to fall. To the 'man in the street' all these people are equally trained and qualified - but at least they have some form of training which some non-member will-writers do not possess; this is a cause for concern.


IPW members will point out that their professional indemnity premiums are less that those of the SWW. True. Does that therefore mean the IPW members are better than those of the SWW? It might, but then it might not. When I came into the sector the IPW's exams were not due to be held for another 6 months. I wanted my business up and running so I chose the SWW. In much the same way as people do not change their Bank I am now 'tied in' with the SWW - to change I would have to incur costs of entrance exams (which would serve as no benefit to me as the general public do not recognise or understand them), amend my stationery, and my website. A huge cost that would take time to recoup from the lower professional Indemnity premiums. I know of several will writers in the same position as myself. Others chose the SWW (over the IPW) because the SWW is better known to the general public

To overcome the problem of untrained and unqualified will writers touting for business, and to protect the public, there have been calls to regulate the industry. The Law Society was previously very vocal about the need for regulation of the will-writing sector. Despite their huge influence in powerful places [within Government] their demands for regulation were declined. They have continued to take pot-shots at will writers and until recently had a list of examples on their website were will writers had drafted poorly a clients will. They listed something like 8 poor examples - as if 8 examples showed the whole will-writing industry to be substandard. I agree that 8 is, in an ideal world, 8 too many but ... I, as a sole practitioner, have three examples of wills poorly drafted by solicitors: 1. a will that includes a discretionary trust but overlooked the appointment of guardians for the testators children aged 3 and 7 at the time; 2. a legacy of £100,000 where they had over-looked including the name of the beneficiary - the sentence just stopped; and 3. a residue clause that overlooked the automatic application of s33 of the Wills Act - with the result that this particular will could only have been resolved in the Courts.

I am a single trader; I wonder how many examples the members of SWW, the IPW and STEP could collectively produce to show that solicitors create poorly drafted wills? Then, by using the Law Society's own logic that if we can show some solicitors draft wills very poorly then it must be presumed all solicitors draft wills poorly, it can easily be argued that all solicitors draft wills poorly - which is complete rubbish.

The IPW has now launched a campaign to regulate all will writers. Localhero's forum signature refers to their campaign. Paul Sharpe, chairman of the IPW, was promoting the need to regulate the will-writing industry recently in the New Law Journal. To support his claims he quoted the same figures as Localhero posted earlier - these figures obtained independently by a survey the IPW itself commissioned. (It never ceases to amaze me how these independently commission surveys conclusions that sit conveniently with the commissioning body's viewpoint - but I am a sceptic.)

In my opinion regulation of will writers will not work. Supporters of regulation point out it worked in the financial services sector, driving out untrained advisers from the industry. And, I agree it did remove some. But financial services is different from will writing. In financial services you have a finite number of end providers e.g. lets suppose you, as an adviser, want to buy a life policy for your client. You can choose from any of a relatively small number of life companies. If you are not regulated with the FSA the life company do not pay out any commission to you; so you register with the FSA.

As another example of failed regulation, most of us drive cars. It is regulated in that we have to have pass a driving test. So do you speed? (33 mph in a 30 m.p.h. zone?) And how many times are you passed by someone who thinks they can drive faster than you? And how many uninsured drivers are there on the road? Regulation controls the many; it fails to control the rogues.

The same will apply to will writers; those legitimate, trained advisers will join the regulation - but that will not result in malpractice being driven from the industry. Enforcement of regulation would be near impossible (and very expensive). To the 'man in the street' we are [nearly] all the same. The untrained will-writer will just side step the regulation requirements - and as a result be able to offer wills at a reduced price compared to their regulated competitor ... and thus gain more business.

In any case, as highlighted above with the solicitors - who have been regulated for many years, being regulated does not make you a better will writer. Nor does passing an exam mean you are a better will writer; yes you had a certain level of competency at a point when you took your exam but if you only drafted a will once a week (or as in some cases less than once a month) that knowledge would soon disappear. Initial training, ongoing training, and regular drafting of wills does improve technical competence. All organisations require their membership to undertake ongoing CPD training.

But even a high level of knowledge does not remove bad or malpractice. When I first started in this sector I worked [briefly] for another will-writing firm. Their sales method was to 'open the door' with the enticement of a low price will. Once in, as the sales consultant, my role was to promote the need for a protective property trust; the will price increased from £75 to £400. I personally found this unethical, but that was my personal viewpoint. As the proprietor said to me - 'I run a successful business and have done so for many years.' The proprietor of the business was highly qualified in law.

Undoubtedly there is within the will writing sector some bad or malpractice. This forum has highlighted some of the abuses of trust/unprofessionalism - which reflects detrimentally upon the sector as a whole. Something has to be done. My message is 'Education, Not Regulation.'

So, in conclusion: (in my opinion)

1. Standards of professionalism, levels of service, training, value for money, and honesty differ not only within the will writing sector - but also within the individual organisations membership.

No one organisation's membership is superior to the other in all cases.

That being said it is important you choose an adviser who is 'up to the job' for your individual circumstances. The technical requirements for an estate valued at say £700,000 or less is a lot less than for an estate valued at say £6,000,000 which involves a business, existing trusts etc. In the latter case life time trusts may be applicable - this is the specialist area of a STEP member or Solicitor rather than your run-of-the-mill will writer.

2. Before using a will writer who is not a member of one of the aforementioned organisations ask yourself why are they are not a member? As a non-member how do they keep themselves up-to-date with the many changes that occur within the law relating to will writing? And if something does go wrong what protection do you/your executors have?

2. Ideally identify your will writer by recommendation; a relative, a friend, work colleague, or financial adviser are good sources of recommendation - though the latter may be biased if he receives an introducers fee.

If they have a website, check this out.

3. Beware the 'traps' that will writers use. Expensive fees for drafting your will, expensive trust clauses, expensive 'probate/executor appointments', expensive third party products e.g. pre-paid funeral plans or storage.

3. Where you are using the 'Yellow pages' to source your will writer prepare a list of questions before calling them.

4. When calling don't ask 'How much for a will?' This is the usual approach. I sometimes feel like replying '£Y for one that won't work and £X for one that does. Which do you want?'

The question also leaves you vulnerable because the response will be for the cheapest simple will you can imagine. One solicitor I know quotes £45 for a will. Then when you ask further they charge an extra £25 for a gift to a child, £45 if that child is under 18 and so on. The small print of their brochure says they aim to charge £18 for every 6-minutes of work!

Instead prepare a range of questions such as: Which professional organisation are they a member of? What level of professional indemnity cover they hold? (£2,000,000 is the recommended minimum). How long have they been drafting wills? How many wills do they draft a week? Are they the drafter or just the salesman/instruction taker? What professional qualifications do they personally hold? What price will they charge for your circumstances?
What guarantees do they offer?

3. If you have agreed to a home visit ask the consultant to show his ID on arrival. Check they are actually a member of the organisation they claim to be (all the organisations provide membership ID cards, certificate of Professional Indemnity Cover.)

4. As the meeting progresses assess whether you feel comfortable with the adviser. If he/she seems unsure then do not proceed. If he/she just fills in a form (rather than asking questions around the form) do not proceed. If he/she just tells you the advantages of everything, and none of the downsides (and there are downsides to every choice) do not proceed. Find someone who will give you these answers.

I hope the above helps you make the right choice when selecting a will writer. Choosing the correct will writer (be they SWW, IPW, STEP, a solicitor, or a non-member of any of these organisations) can save your estate large sums of potentially avoidable costs, and fees - and give you and your family peace of mind.

I ( and I know Localhero as well)do not recommend drafting your own; to do it correctly requires you to have read up on what's required and by the time you have undertaken the task you will have wasted many hours of your life. One simple mistake will result in your will being decided in the Courts and any cost saving made now will soon have been eradicated by solicitors fees.

Do not be tempted to use a simple ' will writing CD'; the professional will writer's software costs many hundreds of pounds - and for a reason. Only when you have used a professional package will you realise just how inadequate these 'write you own Will' CDs are.

Exercise care when using an online providers. Standards vary significantly. The recent National Consumer Council report made the recommendation that all online will writers needed to be regulated. (Interestingly the same report did not suggest home-visit will writers should be)

The title to this post is 'Educate not Regulate'. I hope the above has allowed you to see how to select a will writer, and what traps to avoid.

Personally, I wish both the SWW and IPW would focus more on educating the general public, and their membership about will writing, and who to choose than focusing on regulation.

Thanks Sloughflint for giving me the opportunity to write extensively.

Truth_Hunter

Tatuma,

You raising the name of Trust Inheritance added to my own suspicions.
You mentioned earlier in this thread the following thread

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/....html?t=315961

and in particular post 9 by dunramblin.

Dunramblin's post was in response to Trundlecat's post no 3 in that same thread regarding having their will. Post 3 by Trundlecat reads:

We've just had ours done by Trust Inheritance (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!! ) & I can recommend them. Cost us £45 for the joint will. We also bought their services to store our will & be our Executors should the worst happen, there was no pressure to purchase this service but it's a heck of a lot cheaper than using a solicitor for complicated wills like ours (step kids, greedy families, assets all over the place etc).

First impressions? Mine were that this was an acceptable, ligitimate recommendation. But read on.

Post 4 by Sunnyflyer, in the same thread, explains the high cost of executorship charged by this recommended company. The content of post 4 are confirmed by dunrablin's later post.

In Post 5 Trundlecat replies to post 4:

That worried me a lot but I feel reassured by the contract we've got. The maximum Trust will take in comission is 2% & that goes up on a sliding scale from 0% up to 2% depending on the size of your estate.

I really wanted professional executors because while I want to make sure my step kids (hubbys 2 from previous marriage) get their fair share of capital I want the house & my stock (bought a long time before I met hubby) to go to our kids alone. Petrified that should the worst happen the house will get sold from under their feet.
I didn't know (until the consultant called us before our appointment to let us know what we needed to have ready) that you could appoint guardians in wills. That bit was reassuring cos I home ed my kids so I'm keen they go to someone who'll carry that on with them & not just bundle them off to state school. I'm also a big collector so my list of "gifts" is as long as my arm & I need to be able to keep adding to it. I can edit my will online so as I get something new I can bequeathe it.
Now for the really morbid bit.... I got everything about my funeral in there too. Name of funeral director right down to choice of coffin. I'm having a woodland burrial which most folk wouldn't have a clue how to arrange so that takes the pressure off.
Hope all of it isn't needed but I feel so much better knowing the thing's all done now.

This reply is almost an advert in itself. And the wording? Who uses bequeathe? Is it still a legitimate post or an advert?

It could be legitimate. But if you then look at the other posts by Trundlecat you see she struggles to afford a chest of drawers costing £50, and evidently qualifies for tax credits (as in one post she claims she was faced with repaying £4,000) The other posts, away from recommending Trust Inheritance, give an impression of a typical family - struggling to make ends meet. Yet in the above two posts Trundlecat can afford to buy collectables, a funeral plan and executorship services.

How much do funeral plans cost? £2,000+, and paid upfront? And buying a funeral plan when still a parent - is that usual? And having the expensive executor appointment also?

And why does Trundlecat keep on adding short, simple posts to threads enquiring about will writing which include a cross reference to this thread?
All this is unusual to a suspicious mind like mine.

Is Trundlecat abusing the MSE website rules for personal gain?

I look forward to Trundlecat's explanation. In the meantime I would urge MSE readers to exercise caution before believing the recommendations you may find on this website for this company.