Boiler flue plume nuisance - Gas Safe

Enceladus

My apologies for the length of this question. On behalf of a pensioner. She lives in an Edwardian terraced street consisting of purpose built flats/maisonettes, ground floor flats and separate 1st floor flats.

Over a year ago the landlord of the ground floor maisonette replaced the boiler. The flue exit was positioned below the windows of the upper maisonette and the plume would blow in through her bedroom window.

Following on from a lot of complaints a flue extension was installed. However it only just reaches the roof line and is proximate to the lounge window of the upstairs. The plume now settles around the lounge window. The flue extension is a joke. It has one bracket holding it to the wall and is installed at an angle, presumably to make it reach the sloping roof line. If it was actually vertical it would terminate below the gutter. The top of the extension is butted against the gutter and there does not appear to be a proper fixing.

Numerous further complaints were made but nothing was done. So pensioner called Gas Safe. They said that they would seek to inspect the downstairs if permission for an inspection could be obtained, else they would do a "limited" visual inspection from the upstairs.

No access was forthcoming so the limited inspection was done. The plume was present when the inspector arrived. He observed that the flue extension is incorrectly sited, badly installed and that the plume caused a nuisance. However his written report says "... appears to be sited in a manner that may cause its products of combustion to discharge over and on your property" The letter goes on to say "The British Standards and Building Regulations" informs that "the terminal should be be positioned so that the combustion products do not cause a nuisance ......."

And helpfully concludes that "As the aforementioned matters are specific to your neighbours' property, Gas Safe Register is unable to take the matter any further or offer an arbitration service on your behalf"

Gas Safe further advise contacting the local Environmental Health or Building Control. So she did. In November a letter from Building Control says that they wrote to the owner (and visited the property) several times and requested "certification to confirm that the installation has been carried out by a competent person, ...." For two months it appears there was no response or access.

Now she has been told that "a gas safe certificate .... indicating that the work was carried out be a competent person" has been produced and the Council cannot take the matter any further.

It is unclear to me what certificate has been produced? The Council won't say, citing data protection. What certificates should there be? Presumably copies of certificates for the installers registration with Gas Safe and an additional certificate for the installation? I suspect that if a certificate has been produced then it does not include the flue extension as this was apparently not done by the same firm.

Surely this can be resoled without resort to expensive legal action. What to do next?

Do Gas Safe not have statutory powers to deal with unsafe installations?

How can the Council building control just close the matter when they have been refused access and not seen the problem for themselves?

What is the next step? My suggestion is to write to the Council and get written confirmation of their current position and an explanation as to how they got there?

All help appreciated.

espresso

Gas safe always trot out that they "will inspect if permission can be obtained". This shows what a useless organisation they are and that they are simply not interested in disputes of this nature.

If they were to inspect from the complaining property, it is obvious to anyone that the flue extension was not fitted by a competent person, even if they have paid gas safe their annual membership fee.

The flue extension could easily be encouraged to fall to the ground with very little effort using a broom etc. from the upstairs window and this certainly would not be the case if the flue extension had been correctly fitted, rather than fitted by a gas safe registered cowboy.

There are far too many certified cowboys doing shoddy work like this!

Enceladus

I agree. To the best of my knowledge the building inspector has been refused access to the ground floor flat. And has not visited the upstairs, where (s)he could easily see the whole flue out the window. Assuming the boiler is not in use, that is.

It seems to me that the flue is too close to the window. And it is not high enough to allow the plume to dissipate above the roof-line. Surely it cannot comply with the regulations?

Whatever about the boiler and the original flue, the subsequent flue extension has clearly not been installed by a competent person, regardless of certificate.

If it is not the responsibility of Gas Safe to enforce standards against the owner then it must be building control. Newham BC have concluded, absent a site visit, that the installation complies with regulations and won't take any enforcement action. They have come to that conclusion seemingly on the basis of a certificate showing that the installation was allegedly carried out by a "competent person".

How can we make them take action?

gartshore

Hi can you send me some pictures & I can post them on the gas safe engineers forum to get some opinions I am a gas safe engineer & technical surveyor it would be handy if we knew the make & model of the boiler we could then check installation instructions may be a route to go down michael.oneil2@ntlworld.com

daveyjp

There could be two different issues. Gas safe are concerned with safety of installations and whilst the flue extension is not the best job ever seen the minimum distance required from flue to window is only 300mm, this one is much further away.

If the plume is causing nuisance this is a civil matter and you will have to pay a solicitor to show significant harm is being caused.

Mr_Ted

gartshore wrote: »

Hi can you send me some pictures & I can post them on the gas safe engineers forum to get some opinions I am a gas safe engineer & technical surveyor it would be handy if we knew the make & model of the boiler we could then check installation instructions may be a route to go down [EMAIL="michael.oneil2@ntlworld.com"]michael.oneil2@ntlworld.com[/EMAIL]

Make and model of boiler is completely irrelevant

Mr_Ted

daveyjp wrote: »

There could be two different issues. Gas safe are concerned with safety of installations and whilst the flue extension is not the best job ever seen the minimum distance required from flue to window is only 300mm, this one is much further away.

If the plume is causing nuisance this is a civil matter and you will have to pay a solicitor to show significant harm is being caused.

I believe the reg regarding use of plume kits ALSO state that the termination must not cause nuisance to neighbours even if it conforms to location regs

daveyjp

Mr_Ted wrote: »

I believe the reg regarding use of plume kits ALSO state that the termination must not cause nuisance to neighbours even if it conforms to location regs

It does, but the nuisance has to cause SIGNIFICANT harm. If the issue cannot be negoitiated away between neighbours it could easily end up with expensive legal bills.

The homeowner may have legal cover through home insurance and a phone call to the legal helpline could be worthwhile.

Enceladus

Mr_Ted wrote: »

Make and model of boiler is completely irrelevant

I take it that not withstanding the regulations and guidelines the flue and the extension have to be installed in accordance with the manufacturers instructions?

That said we are unlikely to find out the make and model in the near future. Nobody has been allowed access.

AIUI the "competent" person requires a current certificate and that appears to be the certificate produced to the council. Should there not also be a document for the original installation (no flue extension)? Issued by the competent person certifying that the installation is compliant with the regulations? And likewise an updated certificate attesting compliance for the flue modifications?

Since the flue extension crosses onto a separate property, permissions aside, surely the occupant is entitled to inspect the certificate(s)?

As I see it the flue terminal is not elevated sufficiently clear of the roof, the plume is heavier than air and consequently sinks into the blind alley between the blocks of the terrace. Most of the other properties in the street have the flues on the rear wall over the garden versus the side wall in the alley that we have here.

Siting the flue over the alley results in a "nuisance" and enforcement action needs to come from the Council Environmental Health?

She's a pensioner so expensive legal action is not really an option.

Here's a pic of the single bracket holding the flue extension. There is nothing securing the pipe at the top. It is just pushed against the rain gutter.

I find it hard to believe that it was installed by a competent person. And this is the third attempt at it, yet the plume is still a nuisance. To start we had no plume management at all. Then we had one installed that put the plume just below the bedroom window. Finally we have the long extension so the plume now settles outside the lounge window. Hardly competent to my mind!

Thanks,

diywhynot

Make and model is relevant. Looks like a Biasi aka 'landlord/DIY/ I'll fit anything' install but perhaps OP could confirm. Manufacturer's installation requirements take precedence. Flue support requirements will be detailed in the manual.