Birmingham Airport PCN (BA02) Dropping off/picking up outside of a designated aera

SongtoWoody

Hi Everyone,

I have trawled the site and read the guides, now it is time to 'take the plunge' in the fight against what I now believe to be a parking scam.

I totally agree with the ethos of the forum and thank all those regular contributors who have helped create it.

On the 29/12/2013 our car was used to drop off a family member at Birmingham Airport on the approach road, not in a designated area.
She stayed for a minute, car was never switched off and then drove off.
There was no other road traffic at the time.
As shown in the three supporting photographs covering a time span of 1 minute.


On the 13/01/2014 (it might have been the 14th) we received the APCOA PCN, addressed to my wife (who is the registered keeper) stating ' Notice is hereby served to the registered keeper of the vehicle......for the above contravention.
The date of issue was the 10/01/2014.
In Date Notice Given it was written 'ASSUMED TO BE 2 WORKING DAYS AFTER'.

No mentions of any act being used or APCOA as a creditor is present.

I am unsure if we in the initial appeal to APCOA should use the out of time argument, I am still unclear on this).

Or should we use the remaining arguments re signage, not entering into an agreement, and unjustified damages.

Any advice gratefully received.

Thanks

The_Slithy_Tove

Unless APCOA are specifically claiming the use of the Protection of Freedoms Act, then timings and naming of creditor are irrelevant. APCOA are tending not to use POFA, especially as airports are not "relevant land" for its use.


Stick to the tried and tested arguments. There are hundreds of airport stopping threads for more information.

Redx

also read this https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4816822

nigelbb

Whether they mention POFA 2012 or not the only way that they can hold the Registered Keeper liable for an unpaid parking charge would be to comply with the strict requirements that POFA 2012 lays down. Firstly a Notice To Keeper must be delivered within 14 days after the parking 'crime' which they have failed to do. Monday 13th January was the drop dead date so you can reply as the RK & tell them that must cancel the charge as they need to contact the driver who you are not obliged to identify. If they don't agree then they should supply a POPLA code so that you may get POPLA to explain the law to them at their expense.

SongtoWoody

nigelbb wrote: »

Whether they mention POFA 2012 or not the only way that they can hold the Registered Keeper liable for an unpaid parking charge would be to comply with the strict requirements that POFA 2012 lays down. Firstly a Notice To Keeper must be delivered within 14 days after the parking 'crime' which they have failed to do. Monday 13th January was the drop dead date so you can reply as the RK & tell them that must cancel the charge as they need to contact the driver who you are not obliged to identify. If they don't agree then they should supply a POPLA code so that you may get POPLA to explain the law to them at their expense.

Thanks for the quick reply.

Having read your comments am i right in thinking even if they don't quote POFA 2012 that they must follow their own BPA Code of Practice mainly:

APPENDIX C

Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012
Section 7 Para 4,5 & 6
(4) The notice must be given by:
(a) handing it to the keeper, or leaving it at a current
address for service for the keeper, within the
relevant period; or
(b) sending it by post to a current address for service
for the keeper so that it is delivered to that
address within the relevant period.
(5) The relevant period for the purposes of sub-paragraph
(4) is the period of 28 days following the period of 28
days beginning with the day after that on which the
notice to driver was given.
(6) A notice sent by post is to be presumed, unless the
contrary is proved, to have been delivered (and so “given”
for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4)) on the second
working day after the day on which it is posted; and for
this purpose “working day” means any day other than a
Saturday, Sunday or a public holiday in England and Wales.

and as the timeline is follows
- The alleged parking incident was on the 29/12/2013
- The relevant period (14 days) starts one day after being 30/12/2013, ending (12/01/2014)
- The notice was issued on the Fri 10/01/14, assumed delivery 2 working days
- Notice delivered 1st working day being 13/01/2014, 15 days, eg out of time.

So their own systems allow them to issue charge notices that they know will never arrive within the relevant period, even if they arrive on the first working day.

What a shocker!!!

Can you confirm that this is the case and i will send my appeal.

Thanks again for your help.

nigelbb

Yes, that is the case. Was the NTK sent by First Class Post? If so then legally it is presumed delivered on the second wrong day after posting in this case on Tuesday 14th January & thus too late. Incidentally some PPCs send NTKs out by second class post & therefore cannot rely on the resumed delivery after two working days.

If you are to rely on the fact that the NTK is out of time it is important not to make any inference as to who the driver might have been e.g. respond only in the 3rd person & never say "I didn't see the signs"

Coupon-mad

Having read your comments am i right in thinking even if they don't quote POFA 2012 that they must follow their own BPA Code of Practice mainly:

APPENDIX C

Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012

Yes and no - you are getting caught up in an Act that irrelevant to your case.

Look what you quote above, the specific bit you quoted was about POFA2012. So it's still not relevant to your fake PCN because not all 'tickets' fall within that Act. And yours was at an Airport anyway, where POFA2012 is UNLIKELY to even come into the equation as it is not 'relevant land' as defined in the Act. Please don't make the mistake of thinking a late NTK is fatal to the whole thing - it is only fatal to establishing keeper liability. They can take ages to send a NTK when it's Airport land as those deadlines DO NOT apply, only the driver can be considered potentially liable (not that they tell you that when writing to the registered keeper).

This is covered in the NEWBIES FAQs thread at the top of the forum where you can use/adapt an example appeal suitable for where a PPC has failed to establish keeper liability under POFA. I am pretty sure there's an Airport/railway example (not 'relevant land') which you could adapt to suit. Doesn't mean the whole charge is stuffed - can still be aimed against the driver, which is why you don't imply who was driving of course. As per the examples in the sticky thread at the top.

Redx

a good explanation here in post #10 too https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4872951

SongtoWoody

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Yes and no - you are getting caught up in an Act that irrelevant to your case.

Look what you quote above, the specific bit you quoted was about POFA2012. So it's still not relevant to your fake PCN because not all 'tickets' fall within that Act. And yours was at an Airport anyway, where POFA2012 is UNLIKELY to even come into the equation as it is not 'relevant land' as defined in the Act. Please don't make the mistake of thinking a late NTK is fatal to the whole thing - it is only fatal to establishing keeper liability. They can take ages to send a NTK when it's Airport land as those deadlines DO NOT apply, only the driver can be considered potentially liable (not that they tell you that when writing to the registered keeper).

This is covered in the NEWBIES FAQs thread at the top of the forum where you can use/adapt an example appeal suitable for where a PPC has failed to establish keeper liability under POFA. I am pretty sure there's an Airport/railway example (not 'relevant land') which you could adapt to suit. Doesn't mean the whole charge is stuffed - can still be aimed against the driver, which is why you don't imply who was driving of course. As per the examples in the sticky thread at the top.

Thanks again,

I have written as the registered keeper, including the out of date notification re driver liability. I have used one of the templates as suggested, amended as required.

I have stated that the registered keeper will not be providing the drivers details.

And that any further communication unless it is a cancellation letter must contain a POPLA ref appeal number.

And i will further complain to DVLA & BPA.

At which point I will introduce the other topics as suggested throughout the site and including the most recent concluding paragraph re " in every case were a motorist has raised the issue, POPLA have accepted the appeal"

Thanks again for all your help.

Coupon-mad

Sounds like you have it sussed, which is what we are here for! Good stuff.

SongtoWoody

Just received a Demand for payment from the above company on behalf of APOCA.

I have heard nothing from APCOA Parking (UK) Ltd re my direct appeal to them.

My Royal Mail Certificate of posting confirms i sent my appeal to them on the 22/01/2014.

Not sure what is my next move?

Any help much appreciated.