Parking Eye - Pay and Display

CraigHealdpoint

I have read a few of the threads on here, and have a fair idea what to do next, but before getting too far into things (and posting a DRAFT appeal letter for comment), can anyone let me know if there is any difference between the options for a car park such a Retail Park, or one that is always Pay and Display?

My vehicle was "snapped" for 15 minutes or so on a Car Park that PE say they operate on behalf of the (un-named) owner, and on which the signs say charges are just under £1 per hour (or part).

PE have issued a PCN (charging £100 with a possible reduction to £60) to me as Registered Keeper.

If the process is the same, I will write up my DRAFT letter and then seek further advice.

Thanks in advance.

Craig

SevenTowers

The process is the same, post your draft. It is probable that they will reject the appeal, but PE have been known to accept appeals from obviously clued up motorists, where they know issuing a POPLA code will just be another $27 thrown away.

Coupon-mad

The process is the same - in fact the whole POPLA appeal can be exactly the same for both scenarios!

CraigHealdpoint

Hi Guys,

I have now put together my first DRAFT of a letter to ParkingEye, that I intend to post first class (but not Recorded - just a Certificate of Posting).

I would appreciate any feedback. Here goes:

"Dear Sir/Madam,

Without prejudice, except as to costs

I refer to your above referenced “Notice to Keeper” letter dated **** 2014, and headed “Parking Charge Notice”, that was posted to me as Registered Keeper of Vehicle **** ***. Please note that I wish to challenge both your alleged claim for this charge, and my liability to pay. The primary reasons for my challenge include, but are not limited to the following:

1. I do not believe that ParkingEye has an enforceable contract with the landowner / landholder that permits them to levy penalty charges on motorists up to pursuit of these charges through the courts.
If ParkingEye asserts otherwise, then please provide me with a full un-redacted copy of the Contract, together with contact details for the landowner / landholder, to facilitate verification of its veracity.
2. The amount of £100 being demanded is not a Genuine Pre-estimate of loss. It is instead an arbitrary and punitive amount, and thus unenforceable under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 (in particular, Schedule 2, with examples at Paragraphs 5(1) and 5(2)).
If ParkingEye asserts otherwise, then please provide me with a detailed breakdown of the way in which the loss has been calculated.
3. The signage at the car park is not compliant with the British Parking Association standards in a number of instances, including positioning, size and clarity.
Further details will be provided (either to ParkingEye, or to POPLA) once I have received responses to the issues raised at Items 1 and 2 above.

Please note this is not an appeal. However it is a challenge to your issue of the “Notice to Driver”. As set out in the BPA AOS codes of practice I should be grateful for answers to the questions raised at Items 1 and 2 above. In this respect I remind you of your obligations set out in the current Code of Practice.

To avoid any doubt due to miscommunication, please do not do any of the following:

a. Send any further correspondence or documents to me or try to communicate with me in any way except to address (in writing and sent by post) the specific points I have raised in this letter.
b. Send me any document purporting to be from the county court unless it is a valid claim form duly issued.
c. Send any “Further reminders” repeating your charge; your letter of 03/01/2014 has been received and will be considered.
d. Write to me threatening to send bailiffs to my address without first issuing a court claim form and obtaining the court’s judgement.
e. Send me any standard form letters from your company or debt collectors: no debt has been acknowledged.

I look forward to receiving your acknowledgement of this letter within 14 days and a comprehensive reply should be made within 35 days (in accordance with the BPA AOS Code of Practice Section B, Paragraph 22.8). I will then be able to make an informed decision as to how I shall respond to your Notice to Keeper.

If you reject this challenge or fail to address all the issues that have been raised then, in accordance with the Code of Practice Section B, Paragraph 22.12, please ensure that you enclose all of the required information (including the necessary “POPLA code”) so that I may immediately refer the matter for their decision.

Please Note: Unless you have specifically requested it and received my express permission, you do not have my authority to disclose or refer this letter or any other communication from me to any other person or organisation.

If you do decide to issue proceedings, please note that:

a. I reserve the right to add further arguments to the defence
b. I or my representative will be happy to attend any court mediation that might be offered.

As already noted, my challenge is partly based on the assertion that your parking charge does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss to yourself or the landowner. I understand that in every case where a motorist has raised this issue against you, POPLA have accepted the appeal. You are therefore fully aware that there is no prospect of your charge being upheld.

If you do reject the challenge and insist upon taking the matter further I must inform you that I will claim my expenses from you. The expenses I will claim are not exhaustive but may include the cost of stamps, envelopes, travel expenses, legal fees, etc. By continuing to pursue me you agree to pay these costs when I prevail.

This letter is written wholly without prejudice to my whole rights and pleas and may not be produced or founded upon in any proceedings by any party or other person except on my prior, express, written consent.

yours "

What do people think?

Redx

well, your reply should be as RK, not driver

and if they can avoid giving you a popla code, they will

so a standard soft appeal to PE looks like this

Dear Parking Eye,

As the registered keeper of (reg) I'm in receipt of your parking invoice xxxxxx dated xxxxxx. I wish to invoke your appeals process as all liability to you company is denied on the following:

1) this charge is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss
2) your signage does not comply with the BPA Code of Practice
3) you do not have the authority or permission to issue invoices at this location

These points and others will be raised with Popla should you not accept this appeal, and you will be expected to provide a full breakdown of of your alleged loss, and your full unredacted contract with the landowner.

If you do reject the challenge and insist upon taking the matter further I must inform you that I may claim my expenses from you. The expenses I may claim are not exhaustive but may include the cost of stamps, envelopes, travel expenses, legal fees, etc. By continuing to pursue me you agree to pay these costs when I prevail.

Please issue your cancellation within 35 days of this letter or supply a popla code to appeal to them.

Faithfully

a lot different than yours !!

all this without prejudice malarky has also been discussed on here, its apparently useless in a case like this (do a search on here for explanations as to why)

they definitely will not give you any evidence like contracts etc at this stage

spacey2012

Dear Parking Eye,

As the registered keeper of (reg) I'm in receipt of your parking invoice xxxxxx dated xxxxxx. I wish to invoke your appeals process as all liability to you company is denied on the following:

1) this charge is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss
2) your signage does not comply with the BPA Code of Practice
3) you do not have the authority or permission to issue invoices at this location
4) The registered Keeper has no recollection of the vehicle visiting this site at this time and date, Please provide VCS compliant certification to establish the evidence you are providing by ANPR equipment is accurately timed and date stamped.

These points and others will be raised with Popla should you not accept this appeal, and you will be expected to provide a full breakdown of of your alleged loss, and your full unredacted contract with the landowner.

If you do reject the challenge and insist upon taking the matter further I must inform you that I may claim my expenses from you. The expenses I may claim are not exhaustive but may include the cost of stamps, envelopes, travel expenses, legal fees, etc. By continuing to pursue me you agree to pay these costs when I prevail.

Please issue your cancellation within 35 days of this letter or supply a popla code to appeal to them.

Faithfully

CraigHealdpoint

Thanks to Redx and Spacey2012. It seems that for the initial "soft" appeal, less is more. However, I want to try and give sufficient information for them to see that I am not messing about.

How does this seem now?

" [FONT=&quot]Dear Sir/Madam,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I refer to your above referenced “Notice to Keeper” letter dated ?????2014, and headed “Parking Charge Notice”, that was posted to me as Registered Keeper of Vehicle ???? ???. Please note that I wish to challenge both your alleged claim for this charge, and my liability to pay. The primary reasons for my challenge include, but are not limited to the following: [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1. I do not believe that ParkingEye has an enforceable contract with the landowner / landholder that permits them to levy penalty charges on motorists up to pursuit of these charges through the courts. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2. The amount of £100 being demanded is not a Genuine Pre-estimate of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Loss. It is instead an arbitrary and punitive amount, and thus unenforceable[/FONT][FONT=&quot] under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 (in particular, Schedule 2, with examples at Paragraphs 5(1) and 5(2)).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3. The signage at the car park is not compliant with the British Parking Association standards in a number of instances, including positioning, size and clarity.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4. The Registered Keeper has no recollection of this vehicle visiting the stated site at the stated time and date. Please provide VCS compliant certification to establish the evidence you are providing by ANPR equipment is accurate and appropriately maintained and certificated.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Should you not accept my challenge, please provide me with written notification of your rejection, including grounds. In accordance with the BPA AOS Code of Practice Section B, Paragraph 22.12, please ensure that you enclose all of the required information (including the necessary “POPLA Code”) so that I may immediately refer the matter for their decision.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]When I refer the matter to POPLA, the above points and others will be raised in detail, where I will expect you to provide a full breakdown of your alleged loss, and a full un‑redacted copy of your contract with the landowner, together with their contact details, so as to allow confirmation of its validity. Maintenance records for the ANPR equipment will also be expected.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]To avoid any doubt due to miscommunication, please do not do any of the following: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]a. Send any further correspondence or documents to me or try to communicate with me in any way except to address (in writing and sent by post) the specific points I have raised in this letter. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]b. Send me any document purporting to be from the county court unless it is a valid claim form duly issued. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]c. Send any “Further reminders” repeating your charge; your letter of ??/??/2014 has been received and will be considered. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]d. Write to me threatening to send bailiffs to my address without first issuing a court claim form and obtaining the court’s judgement. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]e. Send me any standard form letters from your company or debt collectors: no debt has been acknowledged.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I expect either a complete withdrawal of your claim, or a letter of rejection, together with the previously noted POPLA code. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Please Note:[/FONT][FONT=&quot] As already stated, my challenge is partly based on the assertion that your parking charge does not represent a genuine Pre-Estimate of Loss to yourself or the landowner. I understand that in every case where a motorist has raised this issue against you, POPLA have accepted the appeal. You are therefore fully aware that there is no prospect of your claim being upheld. If you do reject the challenge and insist upon taking the matter further I must inform you that I will claim my expenses from you. The expenses I will claim are not exhaustive but may include the cost of stamps, envelopes, travel expenses, legal fees, etc. By continuing to pursue me you agree to pay these costs when I prevail.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]yours[/FONT]"


Thanks again for any guidance.

Coupon-mad

That will do the job but PE don't usually fold early on unless it's a retail car park and the person shows copy receipts. So send that online to PE now (forget posting it as they sometimes pretend it's not received - and please don't throw money at Recorded Delivery). Expect a rejection letter template and a POPLA code in due course!

CraigHealdpoint

As subject, PE have responded rejecting my appeal (no surprise) and giving me a POPLA Form (including Ref No I think). PE's letter runs to 4 1/2 pages of waffle about pre-estimate of loss not being a defence, plus a 1 1/2 page table listing 11 court cases that they say they have won, followed by another 1 1/2 pages of FAQs supposedly explaining why any appeal I make will fail. The final 4 pages are a 3 page expanation of the POPLA process, and (finally), the appeal form itself.

I know that I simply need to ignore all of PE's guff, and head to the POPLA case studies to put together my own case (and will be doing this as soon as I can), but is it worth scanning in the letter and uploading it, to let people see what PE are saying?

Please note, I will be working away for a week or so, so will not be able to check for updates, but if people think it would be worth putting a scan up, I will try and do this before I go away.

Redx

I dont think its worth it, I doubt its anything new

I doubt it has any of the recent popla cases or court cases THEY LOST !

concentrate on getting your popla appeal in before the end of feb , that is more important (after checking it on here of course)

CraigHealdpoint

Thanks Redx, will start getting my appeal together.