PCN for stopping and waiting (NOT parking) - private company charge

VelvetLeaf

Evening all,

I wonder if anyone can help/has experienced this type of PCN.

I received a PCN parking charge notice for "stopping and waiting where stopping or waiting restrictions are in force which had the terms of parking clearly displayed on the warning signs". The event was stopping in a particular off-road area with the engine still running while a friend popped in to a nearby shop. It was dark and we didn't see any signs at the time (went back to look after the letter and there are in fact signs up stating no stopping/waiting £60-100 fine, which I missed. The signs gave no option to pay for parking… simply no parking, no stopping, no waiting). So on this basis, I have contravened the sign, albeit not seeing it.

However…. do they have any authority to issue a charge? I've read all the forums and advice on PARKING charges (i.e. driving in to a car park, deciding not to park, and then getting a charge… arguing no contract was formed etc) however I can't find the answer where it is for only stopping and waiting.

With a private land owner, I understand that a contractual relationship is implied where someone uses a private car park… and clearly if you don't pay/overstay then there has been a breach and any "charge" must really reflect the loss (unlikely to be any) of the landowner.

But on what grounds am I being charged here?! I cannot see how I contract was formed here at all… and therefore this seems even more tenuous than a charge for wrongful parking.

Any advice / stories of similar experience much appreciated!!!

Many thanks,

Velvet Leaf

Redx

first, its not a "fine" as only a court or judge can fine you , its a parking charge invoice if its from a PPC for parking on private land that they enforce, so not just car parks but any private land at all

depends on the PPC and landowner as to what comes next and you did not mention them , so check them against the BPA or the IPC for starters, then check this newbies thread

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4816822

from reading that thread and checking the membership lists, decide what comes next , dependent on your region too

VelvetLeaf

Many thanks for your reply - and sorry for the new thread but I have looked through the forums and read the newbies post and I think my situation seems different…

The issuer of the letter is Park Direct UK (the company with a bad rep for Ealing Broadway station) however the area in question was a small pull-in area at the side of a road in front of an apartment complex in London (not a supermarket/retailer that I can call and complain).

The problem is that no-one else on the threads seems to have experienced this type of "charge" notice… i.e. it's not actually for parking… but just stopping and waiting. Therefore I can't seem to apply others' experiences as precedents. I have no excuse for stopping there (I just didn't see the sign and didn't know it was private/prohibited).

Going through the newbie steps…

* they don't state "keeper liability" just that they have obtained my details from DVLA as registered keeper.

* they have not cited POFA 2012

* it wasn't a windscreen ticket - just a rather blurry camera photo

* my husband was driving (he is not the registered keeper)

Thanks again for pointing me in the right directions!

Velvet Leaf

spacey2012

Can you post up the company name EXACTLY as it is written in the correspondence in full.
This company may have been illegally obtaining dvla data by using a similar sounding name as a company that is a AOS operator.

spacey2012

PS Look who it asks you to make payment out to.

VelvetLeaf

It's Park Direct UK Ltd of 1 Furzeground Way, Stockley Park East, Uxbridge UV11 1BD.

It's a BPA-approved operator and I checked Companies House and this is the registered company address.

Many thanks

Redx

no need to apologise for starting a new thread, that is exactly what you should have done, just not enough info despite the long post, hence some of the previous questions

parking , stopping , whatever , call it what you will , your vehicle was likely to have been on private land so was trespassing effectively, they call it a PCN but either way its an invoice for not complying with their "rules" , doesnt matter if the engine was running , idle or off

as they are in the BPA (according to your checks) they can produce fuzzy photos and get the RK details from the dvla too, in order to enforce their "rules"

your best defence is to fight this on legalities and the BPA CoP , not your interpretation of the word parking etc

so on signage , no contract to operate , not a gpeol etc

all covered in the newbies thread , or linked from it

also do a forum search using the forum search tool for similar instances of this, even if its a different place in england and wales

SevenTowers

VelvetLeaf wrote: »

Evening all,

I wonder if anyone can help/has experienced this type of PCN.

I received a PCN parking charge notice for "stopping and waiting where stopping or waiting restrictions are in force which had the terms of parking clearly displayed on the warning signs". The event was stopping in a particular off-road area with the engine still running while a friend popped in to a nearby shop. It was dark and we didn't see any signs at the time (went back to look after the letter and there are in fact signs up stating no stopping/waiting £60-100 fine, which I missed. The signs gave no option to pay for parking… simply no parking, no stopping, no waiting). So on this basis, I have contravened the sign, albeit not seeing it.

However…. do they have any authority to issue a charge? I've read all the forums and advice on PARKING charges (i.e. driving in to a car park, deciding not to park, and then getting a charge… arguing no contract was formed etc) however I can't find the answer where it is for only stopping and waiting.

With a private land owner, I understand that a contractual relationship is implied where someone uses a private car park… and clearly if you don't pay/overstay then there has been a breach and any "charge" must really reflect the loss (unlikely to be any) of the landowner.

But on what grounds am I being charged here?! I cannot see how I contract was formed here at all… and therefore this seems even more tenuous than a charge for wrongful parking.

Any advice / stories of similar experience much appreciated!!!

Many thanks,

Velvet Leaf

There is nothing different about your case than any of the others on here, it is a fake PCN, end of. You are making the mistake of thinking the PPC has to have some sort of justification for issuing these tickets, they don't! They just make up their own rules to scare people into giving them as much money as possible.

Just follow the information on the sticky threads below, submit a soft appeal to the PPC, when they reject get a POPLA code and do a forum guided to POPLA appeal to 100% gurantee the ticket will be cancelled

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/63678135#Comment_63678135

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4816822

And remember, what "happened" on the day is irrelevant, you are going to challenge their legal right to issue these tickets.

The_Slithy_Tove

VelvetLeaf wrote: »

Many thanks for your reply - and sorry for the new thread but I have looked through the forums and read the newbies post and I think my situation seems different…

Nope. No different from the hundreds of airport "no stopping" fake PCNs that are dished out. Not that it matters, as the POPLA winning argument of not a genuine pre-estimate of loss is the same whatever the cisrcumstances.

Coupon-mad

Your case is the same as all of them - when it comes to POPLA stage use the 'no stopping zone signage' wording and all the usual points about no GPEOL and no contract, that you would find in a typical VCS or APCOA appeal at an Airport (they are similar to this drivel).

Please re-read the Newbies advice - it IS relevant to your fake PCN same as any other. You simply appeal to the PPC as the keeper like everyone else does at first.

Iceweasel

The issuers of these speculative invoices bank heavily on the general public not understanding what it's all about.

They are helped by people seeing things that are not there - or by the average person's ignorance of the need to use carefully defined terms and the exact meaning of certain words.

A fine is not the same thing as a charge is not the same thing as a penalty.

The OP said in the first post:

It was dark and we didn't see any signs at the time (went back to look after the letter and there are in fact signs up stating no stopping/waiting £60-100 fine, which I missed.

I wonder if they really did have the word fine on the sign? I doubt it.

Misunderstanding the sign has the reader setting off on the wrong foot right at the start, by thinking the PPC has some form of legitimacy.

Much more publicity for this nonsense is called for.

Time for Watchdog again?