PC World 16 year court case in today's DM

sirwiggum

VictimOfImpersonation wrote: »

At the time that guy bought his laptop wifi routers were definitely not available to the public and hotspots were a mere glint in someone's eye. The only way to connect a laptop to the Internet was either via ethernet cable connection to a friendly network, or via a modem, usually analogue, and IIRC maximum speed 32Mbps.

32Mbps!! Using a modem in 1998?? :rotfl:

In 1998 V90 was only becoming a modem standard, which allowed 56 kbit/s download and 33.6 kbit/s upload - maximum!

Anything above that was ISDN, which only offered 128 kbit/s.

Heck I have 21st century broadband and can only get 1.5Mbps!

Typical leading internet providers were AOL and Compuserve ( they later merged). Google was unheard of

Google were just starting to become popular, as the likes of Yahoo and AltaVista were becoming too cluttered and their search bot algorithms were starting to be gamed by some sites.

Compaq were leaders in laptops. Search engines used were typically altavista or yahoo. Compaq actually paid serious money to buy altavista. Microsoft didn't even imagine what search engines would become. Internet marketing was thought of as a fad which perhaps every business ought to keep an eye on, but not much more. Few thought that it would ever become a mainstream marketing channel.

Microsoft were caught out, with Windows 95 they didn't take the internet seriously (IE was only an add-on in the 'plus' pack). It wasn't until Win98 that they included the browser and tried to promote their own MSN internet service.

The internet was not yet a comprehensive universal library for everything imagineable. It was frustratingly less than the local library in many respects. You could if you knew where to look begin to download 3MB mp3's using applications like Winamp. It took ages!

Back then companies may have had a site, but it was more or less an electronic brochure rather than the full E-Commerce sites we enjoy today.
Most of the internet as I remember it from that time was made up of poorly made individual's pages with animated 'Under Construction' gifs.

PCMCIA modems were expensive. Separate modems were irritating.

Modems in general were expensive. Seperate modems were better than cheaper WinModems.

It would've been nice if PC World had given a discount on a PCMCIA modem as a gesture, certainly cheaper than legal action.

Laptops were generally used for business e.g. powerpoint presentations and were expensive compared to desktops. They were not multimedia machines in any meaningful sense.

By 1998 they were starting to become multimedia.

My 1995 Toshiba T2130CT ran Windows 95 and Office. No sound card, no internal CD ROM, just a business machine.

My 1998 IBM Thinkpad 380Z had sound, speakers and a CD-ROM.

When new they would've cost a fortune. My 1994 486 desktop cost what a top-spec PC now would cost.

Laptops are starting to go back to business applications, the 2000s consumer laptop market is shrinking as people realise they can look at pictures of cats or facebook on a tablet.

They were the main way that travelling businessmen kept up to date with email and from the outset, computer modems were dual capable and could be used to send faxes directly from MS Word for example. Faxes were still very important in business. A laptop with no internal modem was hardly smart. It was a key desirable feature.

Still an occasional useful feature that not many people know about, eg. if you need to fax your insurance company with no claims proof etc.

VictimOfImpersonation

sirwiggum wrote: »

32Mbps!! Using a modem in 1998?? :rotfl:

In 1998 V90 was only becoming a modem standard, which allowed 56 kbit/s download and 33.6 kbit/s upload - maximum!

Anything above that was ISDN, which only offered 128 kbit/s.

Heck I have 21st century broadband and can only get 1.5Mbps!

Yep same here. Sorry about the typo with the M instead of the k - what's a thousand times more between friends ? :beer:

Google were just starting to become popular, as the likes of Yahoo and AltaVista were becoming too cluttered and their search bot algorithms were starting to be gamed by some sites.

Well maybe you were closer to the mill, but I was working in an IT department throughout the late 90s / early 00s and I distinctly remember a contractor asking me in the year 2000 "have you ever tried Google?" to which my reply was "No, what is it?" or something equally inane!

Microsoft were caught out, with Windows 95 they didn't take the internet seriously (IE was only an add-on in the 'plus' pack). It wasn't until Win98 that they included the browser and tried to promote their own MSN internet service.

Back then companies may have had a site, but it was more or less an electronic brochure rather than the full E-Commerce sites we enjoy today.
Most of the internet as I remember it from that time was made up of poorly made individual's pages with animated 'Under Construction' gifs.

Modems in general were expensive. Seperate modems were better than cheaper WinModems.

Yep I remember it well - I built and maintained a couple of 40 page brochure sites - can't ignore the internet, but it'll probably never be "all that" :rotfl:

It would've been nice if PC World had given a discount on a PCMCIA modem as a gesture, certainly cheaper than legal action.

You can say that again, but PCMCIA modems were I think around £100 (I still have a Nokia one here in a drawer that I think I used in anger about twice which was for before mobiles had modems in them !)

By 1998 they were starting to become multimedia.

My 1995 Toshiba T2130CT ran Windows 95 and Office. No sound card, no internal CD ROM, just a business machine.

My 1998 IBM Thinkpad 380Z had sound, speakers and a CD-ROM.

When new they would've cost a fortune.

Woo yeah ... my company laptop in 1998 was one of those Thinkpads with the funny little pink rubber t|t as some kind of joystick mouse jobbie?!

My 1994 486 desktop cost what a top-spec PC now would cost.

A mate built my home machine for me in 1993 - 170MB hard drive and 4MB RAM :rotfl: - still cost about £300 I think! Had Microsoft Office on it though - with Access 1.1, Excel 3,4 or 5 was it? And Word. Each had its own version of Basic for programming - when I think how much I have unlearned it is amazing !
But at work we were still using Lotus 123 and Word Perfect in 1994!
Ha! Those were the days! It was multimedia Jim, but not as we know it - Databases were more the thing - when my boss found out I was able to Query 10 years worth of legacy data on the AS400 using MS Access and an ODBC driver he and the FD almost had a fit! Then of course they just wanted more, and more, and more :eek:

kirkbyinfurnesslad_2

I remember the days of the V90 modem!
It was all yahoo search engine and excite
IRC was the chat engine of chose!, oh and i used netscape

The whine of the modem dialing in, them were the days!!!

VictimOfImpersonation

kirkbyinfurnesslad wrote: »

The whine of the modem dialing in, them were the days!!!

I remember the V90 ba-doing ba-doing! In fact I might dig one out and fire it up just for the sheer nostalgia of the handshake - but are there any V90 dial-up numbers left out there who know how to do that handshake? :undecided

So then, now we have reminded ourselves where it was at, are we behind Mr Durkin yet ?

tinkerbell28

Victim are you mixing me and tiger up?

I worked for them and wouldn't ever shop there. From things I see, I don't think things have improved that much.

Back then it was all about the cover plan. Not guilt to be felt trying to sell a £12 cover on a £10 cassette player. Wifi and all that was not in the public market place.

I don't like them as a company because I used to feel sorry for people. Phone gone wrong 3 times? Sorry we've got to send it off. Fobbing people off the the manufacturer. Occasionally you'd get a good manager ready to take the hit for the good of the customer. The staff were not treated well either.

Returns were a no-no if it could be avoided as you lost money.

Do I think he was miss sold? I don't know, I wasn't there. Do small claims act on the balance of probabilities? Yes. So what I can't understand is why he only sued them in the first place for return of the deposit. Why he didn't sue them for the full value of the finance to settle it or have it written off.

It's almost like, because he didn't front the money. He just forgot about it, until these black marks posed an issue.

Whether we like it or not there are procedures to be followed when it comes to contracts, things you have to do to cancel contracts the correct way. Just by breaking it isn't the answer. He doesn't seem afraid of legal advice or action. So he either got bad advice, so he should sue the advisor, or he just went about it all wrong.

Are they responsible for that? I don't think so. If he'd have gone about it correctly in the first place, all this wouldn't be happening.

He would have had a clean credit file and a court ordered small settlement in all honesty.

He then decided to sue again for damages to his credit file, because he did not address the issue in the first place and just stopped paying.

He then got awarded damages which was frankly ridiculous in the amount. Which got over turned, so he's got to go back to try and get some cash back.

I think bad advice or action on his part from the start may well have cost him his home, financial stability and 10 years of his life.

It will be interesting if he wins, as it will set a massive precedent in this country and change the whole consume credit field forever.

You have an issue, or think you do? It breaks down in 3 years because you dropped it? Just stop paying! Then claim it was miss sold.

VictimOfImpersonation

tinkerbell28 wrote: »

Victim are you mixing me and tiger up?

Maybe, my mind remembers initials better than full names! Sorry!

Whether we like it or not there are procedures to be followed when it comes to contracts, things you have to do to cancel contracts the correct way. Just by breaking it isn't the answer.

But he didn't just break it, did he ? He was invited to enter both contracts by PCWorld. Clearly they were linked contracts. He took the laptop back. Consequently neither he nor PCWorld ever received any money from the finance company. Or if PCWorld did then they failed to reconcile it with the failed sale. PCWorld failed to stop the finance contract. They behaved pretty badly all round. And the way you describe your employment experience, that would appear to be entirely in character for them.

He doesn't seem afraid of legal advice or action.

Why should any of us be if we are good citizens??

So he either got bad advice, so he should sue the advisor, or he just went about it all wrong.

That doesn't follow. Why would anyone seek advice about having returned a laptop unfit for purpose within hours of buying it??

Are they responsible for that? I don't think so. If he'd have gone about it correctly in the first place, all this wouldn't be happening.

It is PCWorld who should have gone about all this correctly in the first place. Instead they were up to goodness knows what - what on earth was sending the returned laptop back to the customer all about??

You have an issue, or think you do? It breaks down in 3 years because you dropped it? Just stop paying! Then claim it was miss sold.

What?? Who said anything about that kind of fraud in this case?

tinkerbell28

I know there's typos in that. But I'm on my phone and my nails get in the way. I'm expecting to be told it is a mess

When I mean advice. I mean the first time he sued. He only sued for the deposit not the cancellation of the agreement, why? He should've done and this would never have happened.

I never mentioned fraud. It will definitely change the face of consumer credit. Have an issue? Just break the contract, stop paying and there's nothing they can do.

You'll see on the consumer board, the customer isn't always right. It'll stop credit being offered as it will be open to exploitation

iAMaLONDONER

Sabbathdei wrote: »

I think she did in the end ! The company caved in eventually, she was considering legal action as well....she'd bought the pegs, forgotten about them in a drawer for TWO years, and when she found them again they had rotted away or something. She claims they're not fit for purpose and goes to war for a couple of quid ! :eek:

Wow that sounds like the Lady was crazy! I'm surprised she still had her receipt as proof of purchase!

Sabbathdei

:rotfl: Oh yes I forgot to mention that nugget of information....she DID still have her receipt and she was a bit nuts. Some people keep all their receipts for years in case they need to take something back after a decade, it's a hobby to them, they think they can still get their money back years later. I've worked in enough shops to see the very worst aspects of people, and by far the worst customers in the world are the elderly. END OF. :mad:

iAMaLONDONER

Sabbathdei wrote: »

:rotfl: Oh yes I forgot to mention that nugget of information....she DID still have her receipt and she was a bit nuts. Some people keep all their receipts for years in case they need to take something back after a decade, it's a hobby to them, they think they can still get their money back years later. I've worked in enough shops to see the very worst aspects of people, and by far the worst customers in the world are the elderly. END OF. :mad:

Lol I thought paper receipts got old and barely legible after a year or 2!