Advice on eviction

BigAunty

Originally Posted by Somerset



There was and is no gift - it cost 150K

Around 55k vanished through the drop in house prices and/or fantasy valuation of the property at the outset.

Their 'entitlement' ? They are entitled to have to have their contract honoured without being hounded and pressurised by a daughter who appears to have no sense of commitments, contracts or promises made. Who, after having been told she has no case, still tries to evict her legally resident parents, in the hope she can pull a fast one and the judge never finds out she's lieing through her teeth.

Yes, they are entitled to have an expectation that they could live rent free in that property for the remainder of their natural life but it flies in the face of reality so they should now change their expectations or lose their property without the remaining nest egg. The OPs parents are free to submit documents to dismiss or adjourn the possibility of a possession order.

Maybe the daughter's standard of living should be earned by her and not leached from her parents.

The OPs standard of living comes directly from her and/or her husband's employment. They have gained no more than 8k in terms of direct return on investment according to her figures, plus the temporary use of a nice car. Not much leaching going on there.

There is no free rent - it was paid for up-front. Just like you'd buy an annuity and get a pension for life, not till the provider said '' oops that's enough, we don't like this any more''

Terms like 'annuity' and 'pension for life' are useless. This was an informal arrangement that had no contingency or protection so corporate terms like those are entirely redundant. At best they had a contract, agreement, understanding or promise. From a previous separate historic post by the OP, it seemed that the formal equity release scheme they looked into didn't offer them enough money.To quote "They looked into equity release but didn't release anywhere near enough to pay debts." (debts of 80k).

forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4148181


With that tenancy agreement, there is no way a possession order on a S21 would be granted. That's not just my opinion, that's her own legal beagle.

I think this might be the most sensible thing that you have said. There is a strong risk that the S21 will be denied a PO or the case adjourned because its complex. On the one hand, the parents hold that pointless agreement that could be a legal sticking point. On the other, I am unaware of how a judge can refuse possession if the S21 is legally served, apparently a judge must award possession, according to the info on the Landlordzone website. So we will see.

Back to the annuity scenario above - would you accept four years of pension payments, 30K back, after you'd paid 150K for a full life-time pension ? Why should they cancel the agreement ?

Terms like 'annuity' and 'life term pension' are fantasies. The agreement is built on sand. It doesn't matter if the parents pursue her legally or if the judge turns down the PO, because that property is going down the swanee via the repossession process from the lender.

And I doubt that a company that offers annuity and pensions would have looked at the level of debt her parents had and the equity they had remaining after their debts were paid off and from this minute sum then granted an agreement that would mean they could live free in a property for at least 20 years at £8,400 per annum (costing about 170k).




The agreement isn't worthless. It is binding on the OP. The only question is, is it binding on the lender as well. Because if it is, they will honour it unlike the OP who happily shafts her parents when it doesn't suit her any more.

I very much doubt it is binding on the lender - they didn't sign up for it and it wasn't a buy to let, they pay no rent so are excluded occupiers.

http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/repossession/repossession_by_a_landlords_lender


Both parties caused this, both parties suffer hardship through lack of planning, both were greedy - the parents wanted to enjoy a high standard of living despite minimal income and high debts and the daughter saw it as a long term investment, like a pension. It was too good to be true and so both were bitten.

The parents didn't want to face the reality of modifying their lifestyle to suit their diminished capital and so their original frivolous nature has come back to bite them years down the line, losing them their home (which they were always going to lose one way or another) but also their child and grandchildren. All because they couldn't cut their cloth.

Rocky99

Somerset-
Quite frankly, how dare you!!!
Leach off my parents are you joking? Myself and my husband have worked since we were able to do paperounds, never been unemployed or out of work, LEACH of of them!!!!

Yes we took out £50000 for ourselves but this has pretty much been repaid albeit maybe another years worth of mortgage payments.
So the £100000 they had we pay for with our hard earned cash, something my parents obviously have no regard for considering they racked up at least £90000 debt.

Oh yes my poor parents, what about us, we've moved 7 times been unable to provide school shoes for our daughter while they have sat back not giving a s**t. This all happened before we told them we were sinking.

They have sent me a tonne of abusive text messages, they send a mortgage default letter on my sons birthday, and my granparents in law bumped into them in town (they don't know what's going on) and told them they were out to spend a lot of money today?
Oh yes poor parent I guess racking up yet more credit card debt.
You Somerset don't know half of the hell these people have put us through and being the youngest the other siblings done a runner as soon as possible from such self centred, horrible people.

BigAunty

OP - have you looked into bankruptcy? Get free expert advice from a debt management charity.

https://www.gov.uk/bankruptcy/overview

From a quick browse it seems that "Bankruptcy offers individuals that do not have any other real option of dealing with their debts with a legal method of getting out of debt....If you are bankrupt the Official Receiver will determine how much extra money you have available each month after meeting 'reasonable' expenses. You may be required to repay a portion of that extra money for one to three years. ...A person will remain a bankrupt until their date of discharge. In most cases this will be no more than a 12 month period." Costs about £700, perhaps extra for your partner.

My understanding is that you've another property that is rented out that is in negative equity by 25k and that you have to top up with £150 per month to make up the shortfall between rent and mortgage, plus repair costs, voids and so forth. It's a house of cards. Currently you are paying towards 3 properties (your parents, your former residential home that you moved out of due to a neighbours dispute, your rental property) and not being able to make ends meet.

Perhaps you can walk away without any debts due to creditors following the arrears that are accruing at your parents property (I think you have to be around £750 in debt to commence bankruptcy).

Imagine how nice it would be to lose that close to 1k outlay that you have to fund each month for perhaps many years on properties that have turned sour. Even if the court makes you pay a portion of money towards the lenders for 1-3 years, its bound to be less than you are shelling out now and bound to be for a shorter period that the mortgages that are millstones around your neck.

Link to a debt advice charity

http://www.debtadvicefoundation.org/contact

BigAunty

Rocky99 wrote: »

They have sent me a tonne of abusive text messages, they send a mortgage default letter on my sons birthday, and my granparents in law bumped into them in town (they don't know what's going on) and told them they were out to spend a lot of money today?
.

Grow a pair, and I mean that in a nice way.

Seriously, change the phone number (mobile and landline) AND tell the inlaws that your parents have bought you and your husband to their knees financially. Your in laws will soon appreciate how snidey and provocative your parents have been once the penny drops that your parents were trying to wind you up through this social encounter. So next time your in laws brag again about being loaded, your MIL and PIL can quip - 'not saving up for a rental deposit then for when the property is repossessed, i take it'?

Send that mortgage default letter back to them - remind them that it is theirs as I assume it is addressed to the occupiers or is it addressed to you as that's where the mortgage company think you live? Each and everytime they send on the default letters, send them back with the words 'posting this letter won't pay the mortgage' or 'i know the mortgage has not been paid, I spent the money on groceries, bills, childrens clothes' (okay, my imagination is running wild, don't send provocative letters to your parents, particularly as one is a suicide risk and they may go to the press and friends to moan about you, just imagine that you took that action without doing so...)

Rocky99

Thank you big Aunty, would bankruptcy mean they couldn't chase us with this 'contract', it all sounds very scary to be honest. We've ALWAYs paid up anything we owe it just doesn't feel right.

I think we are going to apply for a po just to see what happens?

BigAunty

Rocky99 wrote: »

Thank you big Aunty, would bankruptcy mean they couldn't chase us with this 'contract', it all sounds very scary to be honest. We've ALWAYs paid up anything we owe it just doesn't feel right.

I think we are going to apply for a po just to see what happens?

Sure - the PO makes sense as a first step in that you can give your parents all the remaining capital and they could be assisted by the local council under their statutory homelessness obligations. (However, the sum means that they wouldn't qualify for things like council tax and housing benefit until it was less than 16k with full entitlement at less than 6k as it tapers which, ironically, means they would actually have to pay their rent.....

I am not experienced enough to know if a bankruptcy status will protect you from a judgement made in favour of you paying them compensation for breaching that rent free agreement. Ask a debt advice charity. Plus that status only lasts for a year anyway. Maybe you'd have to go bankrupt again...? Perhaps you could negotiate repayment at an affordable sum each month as part of the case - say £100 or £200 a month. I don't know how paying off court judgements works. Ask the Debt charity or on the Debt free wanabee forum.

There is however, a summary of what different types of debt management vehicles can include or exclude. They detail the advantages and disadvantages of each scheme. Do contact the debt charities now for your future options.

http://www.nationaldebtline.co.uk/england_wales/page.php?page=35_options_for_dealing_with_your_debts

silvercar

With that tenancy agreement, there is no way a possession order on a S21 would be granted. That's not just my opinion, that's her own legal beagle.

I think this might be the most sensible thing that you have said. There is a strong risk that the S21 will be denied a PO or the case adjourned because its complex. On the one hand, the parents hold that pointless agreement that could be a legal sticking point. On the other, I am unaware of how a judge can refuse possession if the S21 is legally served, apparently a judge must award possession, according to the info on the Landlordzone website. So we will see.

The parents defence against the S21 would be that they are not living there under an AST and therefore can't be served an S21.

Whether the judge accepts this or not is debatable. I also wonder if the judge grants possession that means that a court has accepted the parents are there under an AST and that fact can be used going forward, therefore negating the life tenancy. Similarly, if the judge rejects the S21 on the grounds there is no AST, does that mean that a court has ruled that there is a life tenancy?

Rocky99

Even after everything and knowing they have very few friends and family left I know my dad's time will come in the near future and I suppose I would hate (again I know I'm a mug) to think of my mum having to cope without my dad, if anything happens I know she will ring and ask for my help (or possibly abuse me and tell me I caused his death) and I think ill end up helping.....
MUG!

DaftyDuck

Do try for the s21. It may work, it may not, but I can't really see there's much to lose, and it would stem the immediate financial problem. Even if there remains the question of the contract, separating the issues would help you, and I think it would help your parents in the long term.

silvercar

Rocky99 wrote: »

Thank you big Aunty, would bankruptcy mean they couldn't chase us with this 'contract', it all sounds very scary to be honest. We've ALWAYs paid up anything we owe it just doesn't feel right.

If you both go bankrupt, you are not allowed to give priority to one creditor over another. You would therefore not be allowed to pay money to your parents as compensation for breach of contract without the express agreement of the Official Receiver that this is a debt that has occurred after your bankruptcy.

I don't think bankruptcy is your answer at this point, it is using a hammer to crack a nut. If the object is to get your parents out of that house then repossession by not paying the mortgage would do that. (Incidentally, if you went bankrupt now the OR would not allow you enough money to pay the mortgage on that property as you don't live there, so the property would end up being repossessed.)

So if you want to go down this road, the order is:

1. stop paying the mortgage
2. wait for lender to repossess
3. wait for lender to sell the property as a repossession
4. decide what you are going to do with the equity that will eventually find its way back to you.

Your parents then either move themselves (possibly showing the S21 or repossession papers to the council to get HB) or wait for the lender to evict them.

Incidentally, do you have any family that could help you or your parents.

Eventually you could consider bankruptcy if either the house is sold at a loss (arrears can build up and coupled with a quick sale could happen) or your parents take you to court and get awarded ££££ compensation for you breaching the life tenancy agreement.