PCN attached to Windscreen

JustRaider

Hi,

Just registered on MSE today - "NEWBIE".

Received a windscreen PCN from SIP Car parks around 19 days ago.
I guess there will be hassle now from this company, as the car was
parked in their car park without a ticket. The notices were not seen
when the car was parked parked and at the time there was no
indication a charge was required. This was an honest mistake as
it was the first time the car park was used..

Anyone had a similar scenario to this ?

Maybe it's easier to just pay the discounted charge.

Thanks,
JustRaider

Redx

have seen SIP on here before so the the forum search tool in the green banner at the top of this forum

2013 link for one is here https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4604751

also read the NEWBIES sticky thread at the top of this forum too (about 3 down)

there are links in there to relevant threads about various PPC`s , including templates for appeals etc

JustRaider

Thanks for that useful information Redx.

I've looked at the NEWBIES sticky thread, and I like
the content, so I think I'll go down the appeal route

Now do I wait for the postal 'Notice to Keeper' (NTK) letter
to arrive between day 29 and day 56 before I respond to the Company ?

Only on the PCN they state :
"If the parking charge is not paid on or before the end of the 28 day period as specified in this notice or successfully challenged, SIP may serve a Notice to Owner on the owner of the vehicle requiring payment of the parking charge.
The owner can then make representations to SIP and may appeal to an independent adjudicator if these representations are rejected. Full PCN amount of £100 will then be payable."

It is the wording "SIP may serve a Notice to Owner" which is vague. Do they have to send the owner of the vehicle a postal NTK letter ? If they don't send a postal NTK letter then you wouldn't be able to appeal through POPLA.
Therefore is it best to send in an appeal to the Company before the 28 days of receiving the PCN in this case ?

Thanks,
JustRaider

Half_way

Looks like there getting keeper/owner muddled.
They will send a threat-o-gram to the registered keeper, who may or may not be the owner, or even the driver.

The car may be legally owned by a 10 year old, the Registered keeper could be the 10 year olds Granny, but the driver could be the 10 year olds Dad.

Umkomaas

Do nothing (other than reading the threads on here and PePiPoo about SIP) until you receive the NtK in the post - you've got the timescale (29 - 56 days) correct, which shows you are taking in some of the stuff you've been reading - well done.

It can all be initially a bit overwhelming, especially the acronyms and the various technical/legal points, but the more you read the more you will understand and the more likely you will deal with this successfully.

JustRaider

Thanks for pointing out the issue with the PCN, Half_way.

I've looked at other posts on this subject. Apparently ...........
"The BPA Code of Practice supports the need for strict compliance with PoFA (para 21.5 Schedule 4 PoFA only concerns the potential ‘rights’ of a parking company to pursue the registered keeper for the drivers debt. It does not provide any legal framework for the parking company to recover the debt of the driver from the owner of the vehicle. The statement is therefore a fraudulent misrepresentation of the ‘rights’ under Sch 4 PoFA"

Is this a valid reason to have the PCN cancelled ?

Thanks,
JustRaider

Umkomaas

JustRaider wrote: »

Thanks for pointing out the issue with the PCN, Half_way.

I've looked at other posts on this subject. Apparently ...........
"The BPA Code of Practice supports the need for strict compliance with PoFA (para 21.5 Schedule 4 PoFA only concerns the potential ‘rights’ of a parking company to pursue the registered keeper for the drivers debt. It does not provide any legal framework for the parking company to recover the debt of the driver from the owner of the vehicle. The statement is therefore a fraudulent misrepresentation of the ‘rights’ under Sch 4 PoFA"

Is this a valid reason to have the PCN cancelled ?

Thanks,
JustRaider

PoFA does give the PPC the opportunity to pursue the RK if they do not know who the driver is. They can 'invite' the RK to provide them with the name and serviceable address of the driver, if not provided, they can then pursue the RK.

This does not mean the RK is liable, that is open to legal and technical debate/judgment.

So in your shoes I wouldn't be chasing shadows on this point when you've got 4 magic words available to you - and much more powerful - genuine pre-estimate of loss (GPEOL - forum shorthand).

Check this out in your research and reading.

JustRaider

Thanks for the advice, Umkomaas.

I'll start researching GPEOL, as you say it is the best way.
So much to learn !

Thanks,
JustRaider

Umkomaas

JustRaider wrote: »

Thanks for the advice, Umkomaas.

I'll start researching GPEOL, as you say it is the best way.
So much to learn !

Thanks,
JustRaider

You can do it.

As Nike says 'Just do it' ...... swoosh

Coupon-mad

Firstly, please amend your opening post so the driver is not identified, NOW.

I have just edited the Newbies info guide as I think there's an argument that newbies may want to appeal as keeper NOW, EARLY, to the windscreen ticket, in cases from SIP and P4Parking:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4816822

What do others think?

These are small PPCs whose NTDs are not compliant with POFA2012 so there is no 'keeper liability' anyway - and nothing to prove by waiting for the NTK (you can't show POFA non-compliance, can't show a late NTK, because there's no attempt to follow POFA in the first place).

So is there still any benefit in waiting, I wondered, with 'SIP' and 'P4Parking' (maybe a couple of others)?

I have come to the conclusion the answer might be 'no' with SIP and P4Parking as we've seen other OPs patiently waiting, then getting debt collector letters 3 or 4 months later - and having to complain to the BPA about being denied an appeal as keeper.


How about sending the usual appeal from the keeper but NOW? It is an option:





Dear SIP,
Re: PCN number xxxxxxxxx
I see you left a piece of paper on my windscreen which purports to be some sort of private parking ticket (an unsolicited invoice). And yet you do not use the words needed in a Notice to Driver to be compliant with Schedule 4 of POFA2012, so I conclude that your procedures are not POFA2012 compliant.

I am the registered keeper and under the BPA CoP 22.14 it states 'drivers and keepers can appeal to POPLA'.

I am invoking this right of appeal and the driver will not be identified in this process; I am aware there is no legal requirement to do so. Remember, as registered keeper, I have the right to appeal to POPLA so you cannot deny me a POPLA verification code if you reject this challenge, as follows:

1. As registered keeper I am not liable because SIP do not issue POFA2012 compliant Notices. In the absence of such a Notice, there is no 'keeper liability'.

2. SIP do not own this car park, and as mere agents, SIP does not have any assignment of title or authority which would enable you to form contracts with drivers nor to pursue the matter in the courts in your own name. You are required to show your unredacted landowner contract for POPLA if you persist with this unwarranted invoice.

3. Your signage cannot have been clear at the entrance or on site, since the driver saw nothing that would have indicated your assertion now, that this might have been a pay and display site. Under the BPA CoP Appendix B you have mandatory entrance signage requirements to follow - and I contend you have failed to comply.

4. My challenge is also based on the assertion that your parking charge does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss to yourself or the landowner. In every case where a motorist has raised this issue, POPLA have accepted the appeal.

You are therefore fully aware that there is no prospect of your charge being upheld. If you do reject the challenge and insist upon taking the matter further I must inform you that I may claim my expenses from you and my time at the court rate of £18 per hour. The expenses I may claim are not exhaustive but may include the cost of stamps, envelopes, travel expenses, legal fees, etc. By continuing to pursue me you agree to pay these costs when I prevail.

Yours faithfully,



registered keeper's name
registered keeper's postal address




The alternative to this is that you wait, (and wait) and eventually by around March/April you will get a debt collector letter which will mean you'd have two firms to write to and SIP would then say you are too late to appeal (they'd be wrong but)...then you would have to report them to the BPA and DVLA for not allowing a Keeper to appeal, and eventually you MIGHT get a POPLA code.

It's your choice which one to follow, as long as you make an informed decision, either would be fine. Amend that first post though!!

nigelbb

I agree C-M. It's not unlikely that the RK could be a passenger in the car when their partner is driving or that the driver hands them the PCN they picked up along with the shopping. The keeper should strongly emphasise that they were not the driver when the NTD is not POFA compliant.