Parking fines, Peel Centre, Stockport

dannyjohn_2

Hi. Ive recently had two parking fines through around a week a part in the run up to Christmas. Both at 60 pounds. Iv could swear on my mother that i got a ticket both times but i get the feeling there not going to listen. Quite frankly id pay them the price of the tickets just to settle the matter but £120 is a disgusting amount to claim.

Iv read on here a few things about appeal procedures and understand i have to start with a soft appeal to excel parking. I found this great little letter on a similar site which i intend to send of to address each parking ticket separately.

Im just looking to start a thread to get some support in the coming months as i really don't know what i'm doing and paying £120 is just quite simply a financial impossibility

Redx

frankly, there are literally DOZENS of threads on this very subject and car park on here, with template letters for soft appeals and popla appeals and a properly worded appeal ALWAYS WINS at popla

so you have no need to pay anything as long as you use this forums help and appeal in good time to Excel and then to POPLA

in future park at tesco and walk , lol

check the NEWBIES - READ THIS FIRST sticky thread at the top of this very forum, follow the links for the "walk through" that explains the procedures, then follow the links to successful popla appeals for examples of the templates etc

after that, get in your very short soft appeal first, this will be rejected by Excel and popla codes issued

then use the popla examples to win at popla , may take a few months but you wont pay a penny as long as you follow the time lines

also complain direct to the onsite manager, especially if you have the parking tickets, get it cancelled that way, details via that same sticky thread

ps:- forgot to mention, they are not PARKING FINES , never were and never will be either

they are parking charge invoices for allegedly breaking their "rules"

only the legal system can fine you, and these are not fines as they cannot and do not impose fines , it wont even mention the word "fine"on the paperwork

post #8 here https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4857000 , changed to Excel in the opening line, should be a good starter , just add that you paid for parking if you think you did, telling them to check their ticket machine again in case the reg number was entered with errors, they are supposed to do this anyway in case the characters get mixed up etc

Coupon-mad

dannyjohn wrote: »

Hi. Ive recently had two parking fines through around a week a part in the run up to Christmas. Both at 60 pounds. Iv could swear on my mother that i got a ticket both times but i get the feeling there not going to listen. Quite frankly id pay them the price of the tickets just to settle the matter but £120 is a disgusting amount to claim.

Iv read on here a few things about appeal procedures and understand i have to start with a soft appeal to excel parking. I found this great little letter on a similar site which i intend to send of to address each parking ticket separately.

Im just looking to start a thread to get some support in the coming months as i really don't know what i'm doing and paying £120 is just quite simply a financial impossibility

We will support you but I hope the letter wasn't the 'old' template with headings like 'Punitive'/'Unfair' from ParkingCowboys which was worded almost a year ago and is not designed for current winning appeals?

If so, then please change it to a current first appeal letter or email, as linked in a dozen examples in the 'Newbies read this first!' sticky thread here on MSE at the top of this forum. There's even a 'Peel Centre/Excel' example linked in that thread that you can use/adapt.

You will win at POPLA when you follow the links in 'How to win at POPLA' in the Newbies sticky thread already mentioned. Easy to beat Excel, so far in 2013 they've never been seen to send POPLA an unredacted landowner contract and cannot show the charge is a genuine pre-estimate of loss (as long as you include those points in your POPLA appeal of course, as per the usual examples).

Also in P&D car parks we 'think' Excel actually already get paid by the landowner in some cases, allegedly. Hard for them to show any 'loss' then! You can find recent discussion of this and other Excel POPLA appeal wording, if you just search this forum for the keyword 'Excel'. As it was the Peel Centre you will find even more results by searching this forum for the keyword 'Peel' as we get posts every other day about that place.

Happy reading while you await your rejection letter. A bit of homework and you will win.

bondy_lad

when i am at the peel centre,though best bet is to park elswhere,i always tell folk who are paying for parking to keep their ticket for at least 4 weeks (i know that is more than needed) in case the scum known as excell try to scam them for not buying a ticket,some thank me, some think i am nuts,but it will shoot them down in flames if they try it on and you still have retained your ticket.

dannyjohn_2

oops the letter i sent is as follows with the appropriate parts edited............

without prejudice except as to costs Notice to Driver/Keeper (delete as appropriate) [Give its ref number]
On (date) I was the registered keeper of a (make and model of vehicle) registration number (reg number).

Before I decide how to deal with your Notice to Driver/Keeper (delete as appropriate), I should be grateful if you would first answer all the questions and deal with all the issues I have set out below. Once you have done so, I will be able to make an informed decision on how I deal with the matter. I dispute the parking charge for the reasons set out below. Please note that although I dispute the whole basis of the parking charge, my main concern is its disproportionate and punitive level. 1. No contract
There was no contract between the driver and [insert name of parking company]. The driver did not see any contractual information on any signs when entering the car park and therefore at that time had no idea that any contract or restrictions applied. As a consequence the requirements for forming a contract such as a meeting of minds, agreement, and certainty of terms were not satisfied.
2. Trespass
If there was no contract, then at most the driver was guilty of a civil trespass (though this is neither admitted nor denied). If this were the case, the driver may be liable to damages. Given that no ‘damage’ was done to the car park and that the car park was not completely full when the driver parked or when the driver left, there was in fact no loss at all.

3. Punitive/unfair/unreasonable charge
Even if there was a contract (which is denied), the following matters are relevant: 3(a). Punitive
The parking charge you are imposing is punitive and therefore void (i.e. unenforceable). The £[insert amount] parking charge is arbitrary and disproportionate to any alleged breach of contract or trespass. This would also apply to any mention of any costs incurred through debt recovery unless it followed a court order.
3(b). Unfair
The £[insert amount] parking charge you are imposing is an unfair term (and therefore not binding) under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. In
particular, Schedule 2 of those Regulations which gives an indicative (and non-exhaustive) list of terms which may be regarded as unfair and includes at Schedule 2(1)(e):

‘Terms which have the object or effect of requiring any consumer who fails to fulfil his obligation to pay a disproportionately high sum in compensation.’

Furthermore, Regulation 5(1) says:

‘A contractual term which has not been individually negotiated shall be regarded as unfair if, contrary to the requirement of good faith, it causes a significant imbalance in the parties' rights and obligations arising under the contract, to the detriment of the consumer’

And 5(2), which states:

‘A term shall always be regarded as not having been individually negotiated where it has been drafted in advance and the consumer has therefore not been able to influence the substance of the term.’ 3(c). Unreasonable
The £[insert amount] parking charge you are imposing is an unreasonable indemnity clause under section 4(1) of the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977, which says:

‘A person cannot by reference to any contract term be made to indemnify another person (whether a party to the contract or not) in respect of liability that may be incurred by the other for negligence or breach of contract, except in so far as the contract term satisfies the requirement of reasonableness.’ Further information I require you to provide and take notice of:
Please note specifically that this letter is not an appeal however, it is a challenge to the issue of the Notice to Driver/Keeper (delete as appropriate) as set out in the BPA AOS Code of Practice B.22. I should be grateful for answers to all questions raised. In this respect I remind you of the obligations set out in the current Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct. 4(a). Cause of action.

Please make this clear. If it is your claim that the driver entered into a contract, please send me a complete version of the terms and conditions of that contract to which you say the driver agreed to.

4(b). Further to the above please explain fully on which of the following grounds your claim is based:

(i) Damages for trespass
(ii) Damages for breach of contract
(iii) A contractual sum
5. Your loss.

If it is your case that that a trespass was committed or that a contract was breached such that your claim is one for damages, please give me a full breakdown of the actual loss you say was suffered by your business or the landowner/landholder.
6. Appeals procedure.

I require a copy of any appeal procedure you follow, along with details of what factors you take into account; who is the judge or arbitrator and whether they are independent; whether you require oral or written submissions; whether it is governed by the Arbitration Act 1996 and any other relevant factors. In addition, please give me disclosure of any arguments you would put forward on this matter in any subsequent appeal process so that either the registered keeper or the driver might consider his or her response to any existing or new issues which are raised. 8. Your status.

Your Notice to Driver/Keeper (delete as appropriate) simply mentions [Insert name of parking company if that is who is named on the NTD/NTK]. Please tell me who is the actual creditor making this £[insert amount] parking charge demand. I need to know exactly who is making the claim and in what capacity.

9. Ownership of premises.

Please tell me who owns the car park as I wish to send them a copy of this letter.
10. Contract to operate.

Please provide me with a copy of the contract between your company and the landowner/landholder.
11. Involvement of landowner/landholder.

Please explain any involvement, if at all, of the landowner/landholder with the management of parking at this site and specifically with regard to the issue and enforcement of your Notices to Driver/Keeper. (delete as appropriate)
12(a). Photographs- handling.

Your notice refers to ‘photographic evidence’. Please send me a copy of your procedures for handling and processing that evidence and the relevant audit trail. Furthermore, under section 7 of the Data Protection Act 1998 please send me a copy of all such photographs along with a copy of all other data you hold relating to me. As this would be required to be disclosed in any event as part of your evidence bundle in the small claims process, I do not expect to pay for the release of my personal data which you hold.
12(b). Photographs – evidence.

The copies of the photographs that you have provided along with the Parking Charge Notice merely show my vehicle entering and leaving the car park but do not show the actual alleged parking contravention on which your Parking Charge Notice has been issued. Please therefore provide me with copies of all photographs that evidence the actual alleged parking contravention itself

13. Signage.

If it is your case that a contract has been breached or that a contractual sum is now due, please send me photographs of the signs that you display and upon which you seek to
evidence that a lawful and legally enforceable contract was been entered into. Please ensure that the photographs show the terms and conditions in a clear and legible manner. Please provide me with a diagram showing the locations and layout of those signs at the car park. Also provide evidence that the wording is in plain and intelligible language and in sufficiently large print as to be legible to a driver at the car park’s entry point.
14. Legal representation.
Please provide me with the name and address of your solicitors, if any, in order that I may copy them into this correspondence.
15. To avoid doubt, please do not do any of the following:
(i) Send any further correspondence or documents to me or try to communicate with me in any way except to address in writing the specific points I have raised in this letter.
(ii) Send me any document purporting to be from the county court it is a valid claim form duly issued.
(iii) Write to me threatening to send bailiffs to my address without first issuing a court claim form and obtaining judgment.
(iv) Send me any standard letters from your company or debt collectors.
16. If you wish to make a claim you may do so online. My address for service is set out at the top of this letter. If you do decide to issue proceedings, please note that:
(i) I reserve the right to add further arguments to the defence
(ii) I or my representative will be happy to attend any court mediation that might be offered.
17. I look forward to receiving your acknowledgement within 14 days and a comprehensive reply within 35 days (in accordance with the BPA AOS Code of Practice B.22.8). I will then be able to make an informed decision as to how I shall respond to your Notice to Driver/Keeper (delete as appropriate).
18. If you reject this challenge or fail to address the issues that have been raised then, in accordance with the BPA AOS Code of Practice 22.12, please ensure that you enclose all the required information (including the necessary ‘POPLA code’) so that I may immediately refer the matter for their decision.
19. If you fail to follow any of the procedures outlined in the BPA AOS Code of Practice or your legal requirements under the Protection of Freedoms Act, or the requirements of the Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct then I will make a formal complaint to the DVLA Data Sharing Policy Group, D16.
Please Note: Unless you have specifically requested it and received my express permission, you do not have my authority to disclose or refer this letter or any other communication from me to any other person or organisation.
Yours


Iv already sent this out for both fines. i anticipated being rejected anyway but i see it does contain what you said not to include. Is this a bad thing. I will read up on the POPLA appeal

Redx

generally speaking they refuse appeals, so no it may not be a bad thing, but the simpler appeals basically challenge them on their rules under the BPA CoP and the law, and insist that they cancel or send a popla code, backed up with receipt copies if there are any

if they issue popla codes you send a properly worded popla appeal in, but this time post it on here for checking (redacted, no personal info like reg number or popla ref)

lastly, these are not "fines", never were, never will be

they are invoices for breaking their "rules"

do not refer to them as FINES as that is a legal term for court imposed punishments, no courts were involved here, only the court or a judge can fine you

I would have thought you had already learned this from reading this forum, so spelling it out in blunt terms so you get the "drift"

legalese is what works here, not slang words or incorrect wordings

IF they do not issue a popla code or codes, send them the simple challenge to hook the popla codes , as RK , not driver

good luck,

ps:- a point about Excel, they do NOT listen , they just want their pound of flesh !!

I helped beat them recently at POPLA due to them "not listening" on a car park in Ashton (so not the Peel Centre) but similar rules and caveats apply

read it here https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4488337 post #737

the thread is here https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4827711

you have to learnt the game and terminology, then beat them at their own game using their own trade body and "court" (popla) to do it (with correct terminology) , costing them money in the process and then you pay nothing , nada , zilch

Coupon-mad

It's not a bad thing but that was a fairly old template from about a year ago - that all PPCs have seen umpteen times - and gets you nowhere nearer understanding what will win at POPLA stage, that's all. The good thing is you can catch them by surprise with a winning POPLA appeal based on current advice!

You will win at POPLA when you follow the links in 'How to win at POPLA' in the Newbies sticky thread already mentioned. Easy to beat Excel, so far in 2013 they've never been seen to send POPLA an unredacted landowner contract and cannot show the charge is a genuine pre-estimate of loss (as long as you include those points in your POPLA appeal of course, as per the usual examples).

Also as I said before, with a bit of reading you will be well prepared. We 'think' Excel actually already get paid by the landowner in some cases, allegedly, making it hard for them to show any 'loss'! You can find recent discussion of this and other Excel POPLA appeal wording, if you just search this forum for the keyword 'Excel'. As it was the Peel Centre you will find even more results by searching this forum for the keyword 'Peel' as we get posts every other day about that place.

dannyjohn_2

Reasons for the Assessor’s Determination

The Operator issued a parking charge notice (‘PCN’) for parking without

paying to. The Operator submits that a parking charge is due in accordance

with the advertised terms which required users to pay to park. The Operator’s

automatic number plate recognition system (‘ANPR’) observed the

Appellant’s vehicle enter the site at 19:27 and exit at 20:31, a stay of 64

minutes. No parking was paid for. The Operator produced a Pre-Estimate of

Loss Statement in support of its case.

The Appellant disputes that the PCN was properly issued. Amongst other

grounds, it is the Appellant’s case that the £100 parking charge does not

represent a genuine pre-estimate of the economic loss caused by the

alleged breach.

The Operator accepts that the amount of the parking charge is a genuine

pre-estimate of the damages due for breach of the parking contract. The

estimate must be based upon loss flowing from a breach of the parking terms.

This might be, for example, loss of parking revenue or loss of retail revenue at

a shopping centre.

The Operator submitted that the charge was a genuine pre-estimate of losses

resulting from the alleged breach. This resulted in an initial loss of parking

revenue in a Pay & Display car park and consequential losses incurred in

recovering that revenue. The Operator gave examples of those losses,

including costs associated with the debt recovery process.

The parking charge must be an estimate of reasonable losses following

breach of the parking contract in order to be enforceable. However, I find

that a substantial cost referred to by the Operator – that incurred during debt

recovery – is not a reasonable loss to include in the estimate. Only a minority

of parking charges issued will result in costs associated with debt recovery

and there is no evidence before me to show otherwise.

Consequently, I do not have the evidence before me to refute the

Appellant’s submission that the parking charge is unenforceable.

I allow the appeal on this ground alone.

Matthew Shaw

X2 haha. Cheers guys just thought id let you know. Danny

Coupon-mad

Well done Danny!