fear of dismissal

sniggings

Tahlullah wrote: »

U

Of course if you have been suspended or not is relevant. It is extremely relevant. It proves how seriously the employer believes the misdemeanour to be. If you are not suspended, they don't think it major.

That said, an employer can dismiss if they so choose, but the question is if they did it correctly. Is it a wrongful dismissal.

Failure to follow their own policies and procedures is what helps the case. Noone has denied that there probably will be a dismissal, even the op recognises that. What we are however trying to do is give her ammunition with which to argue her case, should she so wish. And the fact that the employer is treating something in one manner and acting in another helps.

The op wants a decent reference and the ability to walk away without threat of reprisal. Unless the employers are going to be nice about this, which I doubt, she is going to need something with which to negotiate. And that something is to know that they have failed to follow their own procedures, and so the threat of tribunal (should she wish to go that far) may be enough for the employer to acquiesce.

It is up to the op what they want to do, but I do agree she should use her Union. But to use them successfully, you have to understand your own case, which is what she is attempting to do on this forum.

well said, it's sad tho that it needs saying, what to me and some others is obvious, needs someone like yourself to spell it out so clearly for the ones at the back.

chocoholic24

many thanks to all of you who have responded

my company policy states that they give UP TO 2 working days notice for a disciplinary .. i had a call on a tuesday afternoon advising me its thursday morning..

Thanks for your input tahlullah - appreciated..

when it came to my disciplinary meeting i spoke to my union however they said at such short notice they dont have anyone available to come with me, however leading up to the disciplinary i rang my union nearly every other day to tell them of any new things happening etc, so they know the case well. I went to the disciplinary by myself and i was accused of 3 things - 1) failure to keep in reasonable contact with management whilst away - 2) failure to provide them with medical notes when obtained and 3) failure to provide original flight details.

these 3 things were sprung on me during my investigation so i had nothing to fall back on or any evidence of any of them. however after my investigation i gathered all my evidence together to prove i was in the right.
in regards to failure to keep in touch and failure to provide medical notes, i printed off emails and screen shots of phone calls and text messages and straight away the manager hearing the disciplinary dismissed them 2 points proving that i am in the right
the 3rd point of not being able to give ORIGINAL bookings is what they are trying to do me for, but i dont have them as when i changed my ticket it was done at a booking office and they took my original one, and the ticket i travelled back on work are not accepting it - they arent accepting emails from my travel agent (because its not a 'company email' and my manager also said we cant confirm its a real travel agents even though its got their business name, personal name of the guy who booked my tickets and their address and telephone number, !!!!!!?)

i dont know where they are going to go from here as it has been over 2 weeks now and i havent heard anything.

chocoholic24

and to make things more interesting or for me worse, they have recruited new people to start next week, and guess who is training them? me!

i want to say no, but i dont know how to without them thinking im being a pain and making the whole thing worse for me? i used to do it before, in fact i travelled to other stores just to train people, i enjoyed doing it, i always went out of my way for them, but now i dont see why i should

my contract does not state i would train new people, anyone think of a nice or simple way of saying i dont want to do it without making matters worse for me?

i was going to say i dont feel comfortable doing it, but i dont think they would accept it..

fruitedeli

chocoholic24 wrote: »

and to make things more interesting or for me worse, they have recruited new people to start next week, and guess who is training them? me!

i want to say no, but i dont know how to without them thinking im being a pain and making the whole thing worse for me? i used to do it before, in fact i travelled to other stores just to train people, i enjoyed doing it, i always went out of my way for them, but now i dont see why i should

my contract does not state i would train new people, anyone think of a nice or simple way of saying i dont want to do it without making matters worse for me?

i was going to say i dont feel comfortable doing it, but i dont think they would accept it..

Then they've already decided to get rid of you. It's called getting you to train others and when they are ready, sack you.

Tahlullah

Congratulations on surviving the disciplinary hearing and coming out the other end with such a good result. What you are left with is an accusation that you didn't provide originals of your flight. But they accepted that you were sick and kept in touch, so, in my opinion, this is unlikely to lead to dismissal on the grounds of gros misconduct.

No doubt, they will find a misconduct issue to hang on this, but I cannot see how accepting you were ill, not providing flight details is gros misconduct.

Therefore, the question is really how you feel about continuing to work there. Are you desperate to get out or would you stay? If you want out, then you could make any excuse as to why you don't want to do the training. Eg, lost confidence as a result of disciplinary would be something they could not argue with.

But if you hope to stay, then you could use the same excuse a bit more diplomatically, explaining that you can't concentrate and focus with this going on and so would not be giving your best and doing the new trainees a disservice. You of course would be happy to help once this difficult situation is behind you...

Congratulations again on getting this far and keeping your sanity.

Tahlullah

Quick question, can't you get the travel agent to write on headed paper confirming what was said in the email? Have you asked?

chocoholic24

i agree with u fruitedeli - which is another reason i dont want to train them!

thanks tahlullah - however i wouldnt say its a good result as they have still got me neither here nor there, i mean its been 2weeks since the disciplinary hearing, and i dont know whats happening - the manager did say that they will most likely request a 'subject access' from the travel agents, i do not understand why though, and the manager wasnt helpful and said this is the only way we will get info from the travel agents - but the travel agents have given all that my work place have asked for - so i said fine, do the subject access thing, but wether they have or not i dont know?

now u say they have accepted i was ill, i dont think they have, even though they have medical notes, they have said that in the past people go abroad and get these fake medical notes just to extend their holidays, so basically insinuating i have done the same.

I have been applying for a new job for about a month now but with xmas and new years its been proving difficult however i am back on it and as soon as i find a new place i wont think twice about leaving.

i think if i refuse the training on the grounds its not in my contract, they will say that 1) i did it before with no issues, and 2) when im on a day off, someone else will have to do it, and its not in their contract either yet they still do it..

its true, i cant concentrate on my job, and its difficult - even though i have progressed a bit, until i dont get any closure i wont be happy at work, so i will most likely say due to whats happened i cant concentrate (which ive rang and told my manager several times) so i dont want to train them incorrectly - previously nothing like this happened so training someone wasnt difficult, but now i cant.. do u think they may accept that? bearing in mind they are a bunch of awkward s***s!!

thanks Tahlullah, u have been very helpful! :-)

Tahlullah

But if the manager running the disciplinary dismissed the first 2 points, then that means they accept the evidence and there is no case to answer on those 2 points. From what you are saying, or how I am reading it, they are now only focussed on this final matter and they are making this formal request for information. They of course cannot control how long it takes to receive the information, but once they have, they will then issue you with a written decision. To me, it does not sound as if they are assuming you are lying, they are actually getting the information directly by making this legal request. For whatever reason, they are ensuring they do this right. You can read it 2 ways. They are ensuring they cross the t's and dot the I's to get rid of you; or they are ensuring that they are clear this a misdemeanour so they can carry on as normal once it is over.

If they wanted to just get rid, they could have done so, in the hope that you would just walk away and not take it further. I just cannot think of a time when I would want to dismiss a member of staff and allow them near new incoming staff, for fear they would try to taint and tarnish the mindset of the new staff. Ultimately, if you were not there, someone else would have to train the new staff. So the company could ask someone else now. They just wouldn't let you near them or give you that level of responsibility, if they could use someone else, because they dislike you so much.

I don't believe they have a case for gros misconduct any more. But again, they may still be looking to bring a misconduct decision in, but that will depend on the result from the subject access report. Without that, there is no case. Based on what you are saying, in my opinion.

I would believe someone saying they can't do a task due to the circumstances you are in. One of the reasons I would be minded to do so, would be because I would not wish for that member of staff to go off sick with work related stress and to threaten to bring a case of bullying and harrassment against me, for ignoring an obviously stressful time that said employee is going through! Anything is possible!

chocoholic24

i went in to work yesterday to be greeted by a new member of staff! surprise surprise! i wasnt best pleased about this but i carried on with my day to day routine explaining things to him so as not to give him a bad impression of the company or anything thats been going on with me

as soon as he left, i rang my manager and said sorry im not training the newbies.. she kept asking why and i said i dont feel comfortable, she said why dont u feel comfortable, so i told her i cant concentrate on my own stuff let alone someone new.. she said she will try and arrange for them to get trained by someone else

just got told now by a colleague of mine that the newbies are being sent to different areas for training now - atleast i got a result :-)

ive had no update in regards to my disciplinary.. i raised a grievance on the back of my disciplinary and they gave me a date and location for this hearing but its tooooo far for me to travel and its on a day i dont work, so i asked it to be changed to my home store, so they changed it to a day i do work but to a different store which again is far for me to travel, but they are saying as ive been there before i can go again, and also provided me with train times (they said they will pay my expenses) - but my issue is that i cant get my union rep to go as they cant travel there and they dont have any union reps in that area - so now will ask them to reschedule it to where i originally said (my home town) and see what they say.

its just proving to be such a long winded thing, and i cant do nothing but think about whats going to happen next

Tahlullah

Be mindful that the employer does not have to keep considering your request to reschedule. You informed them you wished to be accompanied and they have already rescheduled twice, so be aware they may refuse, because they have already conceded by offering travel expenses so you are not out of pocket. The employer has a duty to ensure the grievance hearing is held in a timely manner.

If you can't get your union rep there, do you have a work colleague who can accompany you?